Todd: 0:00

This is the Cluttered Path, a compass for midlife. Andrew Profaci was once in the inner circle of a cult called Love has Won, an online community whose followers believed that their leader, amy Carlson, was literally God incarnate. For nearly a year, andrew was Amy's closest companion inside this cult, where she called herself Mother God. He saw through their manipulation and control tactics and he started speaking out from inside the group, before eventually leaving. But here's what no one tells you about escaping a cult. The hardest part wasn't getting out. It was learning to trust his own thoughts again after years of being told reality itself was a lie.

Todd: 0:46

Andrew's story isn't just about cults. It's about resilience, overcoming adversity, breaking free from manipulation, finding the truth and finding God while facing your own mortality. Now the story's been featured on Dateline, nbc, hbo, vice and other media outlets, and Andrew's also written a memoir entitled the War on Love, which tells his story Now. Today we have the privilege of hearing the story directly from Andrew. We'll talk about these dramatic events, but his story isn't just about a cult. It's about that resilience, the overcoming adversity, breaking free from manipulation and finding truth. Andrew, welcome to the show.

Andrew: 1:23

Hey, thanks for having me Really a pleasure to be here. I'm looking forward to talking with you and giving your audience a great show.

Todd: 1:30

I hope I read the book, man, and after reading the book it's like I got to talk to this dude, it's so I'm glad that we were able to connect man so let's jump right in man, let's get into that story. So let's start with your childhood, because that's an influencing factor here. Now, from birth, you had quite the eventful childhood. Where were you born and what was the situation with your parents at the time?

Andrew: 1:53

Yeah. So, born in Freehold, New Jersey, which is central New Jersey, not far from the beach, raised by a single parent, my father had gotten custody, went through a nasty divorce with my mom when, I mean, she actually fled the state while I was still in her tummy, with my brother and myself running from my family that had mafia ties back in their early 80s they were still pretty strong, you know and she tried to hide away in Tennessee. Really ugly divorce. But dad got custody, he raised me and my brother Didn't see my mom much. My dad worked a lot when I was young. He was great. He was a Boy Scout troop leader, soccer team coach, really did everything that he could.

Andrew: 2:35

And as the teenage years came on he actually came out as being gay and it was something that he a life he had hidden from, especially with my family's background. My grandfather had always suspected and my father, you know, always said no. So there were some issues there and you know my father had denied himself this life for a long time and when he came out I was a young teenager, about 12, 13, and he began living that life and I didn't really see much of him. After work he was going out with his friends. He wasn't getting home until late at night I was already in bed asleep.

Andrew: 3:12

Me and my brother were essentially raised by a nanny. We had Trinidadian and Jamaican nannies our whole life growing up a handful of them that raised us essentially Again, mom wasn't around. Up a handful of them that raised us essentially Again, mom wasn't around and because of that, you know, it created a lot of issues for me as far as judgment, identity crisis as a teenager, not having a role model, not really having anybody. That was, you know, teaching us about the world, answering the tough questions, you know, and getting us ready for life, explaining, you know, why school was important, things like this, doing homework. So I just started to trail off into my teenage years and rebelled and things just took on a life of their own.

Todd: 3:56

At that point, yeah, my life growing up, my dad was a truck driver and my mom she worked like the graveyard shift at a cotton mill and I've learned now as an adult that not having your dad around your parents there it leaves a hole. At a minimum, you miss out on some development opportunities there. So, yeah, that leaves a hole. So what were you into as a teen?

Andrew: 4:18

Growing up, I mean, I was huge into sports baseball, soccer. I was very athletic, blowing off steam. That was a really good outlet for me. But you know, as you got into high school I wasn't playing sports as much because I was getting in trouble at school. Really, I was getting detention twice, three times a week just for showing up late, you know. And then I would realize that to show up late to to school twice, get two detentions don't go to and then I get a day off from school because they give you a suspension. So that is.

Andrew: 4:51

You know I fell into this pattern where I was getting in like little stupid trouble at school, starting to miss a lot of days, wasn't able to play sports and started hanging out with you know the wrong crowd I found myself with.

Andrew: 5:05

You know the other kids who didn't have role models, didn't really have direction in their life, people who were up to you know for kids not doing anything too serious, but still you know not great things. You know getting into fights, thinking you were tough, putting on this. You know tough exterior because you thought that's what it meant to be cool, and for me especially, being teased, ridiculed for having a gay parent. You know, at 13, 14, trying to be cool in high school, that was a really tough time for me, so I really did retreat into that act tough persona Somebody says something to me it was quick to, you know, get into a fight and defend myself, because I thought that's what it took for me to overcome the definition of my father's sexuality, which I felt like was defining me, and it just it put me on a bad road. Unfortunately, and you know, like I said, things got out of hand and I started getting in a lot of trouble.

Todd: 6:06

Yeah, now in the book you shared that you joined a gang the Body Snatchers. Is that what?

Andrew: 6:10

they were called.

Todd: 6:11

Yeah, that's right. So did they sort of become a surrogate family to you?

Andrew: 6:17

Yeah, pretty much. I mean I was with them every day. If I wasn't in school afterwards, I was always hanging out with them, especially on the weekends. You know, we had a lot of fun. It wasn't always healthy fun, even 15, 16,. A lot of alcohol involved, not a lot of drugs, you know marijuana, but nothing like hard or too serious stuff, just kind of like drinking and kids and blowing off steam.

Andrew: 6:46

But we thought we were tougher than we were for sure, and the gang itself didn't have any real gang activities or weren't. It's not like anybody was like, you know, selling drugs and doing things like this. It was just, you know, a name we had given ourselves or that they had given themselves before I joined and eventually know, kind of beat me up and beat me into the gang and that was my initiation one day at a bowling alley. And it was funny because the friends that I used to have in high school that made fun of me all the time happened to be there at the bowling alley and saw this. They thought it was the coolest thing they'd ever seen. You know, I had gotten beaten into this gang and that was totally the wrong thing for my ego at the time because it just kind of pumped me up and sent me in that direction even further.

Todd: 7:32

Right yeah, so it was. It was a gang, but not necessarily a criminal enterprise. It was a group of boys up to no good pretty much yeah, exactly Is that a fair assessment? Yeah, yeah, exactly. You had a very tragic event happen to you at age 18. Can you talk about that?

Andrew: 7:46

Yeah, so that was pretty much the culmination of a lot of that energy coming full circle. You know, making bad decisions, living recklessly, living life in the fast lane, literally. And I was hanging out with a friend one night, getting rowdy. We had picked up a couple girls from a party. That was the last thing I remember about 11 o'clock, 11.30 at night and the road that they were on. We picked them up from a house in a development and the road that led to it had a long straightaway when you come out of it for about three-quarters of a mile, and it went into a hard S-turn.

Andrew: 8:17

Now I don't remember any of this, but my friend had a really fast car, a Mitsubishi eclipse. I had a twin turbo in it and uh, I know he he must have been showing off his car for the girls that we had picked up girls. He didn't know that I did and I was introducing him. So you know, new girls wants to show off. And uh, unfortunately he wasn't very familiar with this road, he wasn't from my town, he didn't see that s turn, coming overcompensated to the left, sent us into a tree off the road and into a tree at about 60 miles an hour, unfortunately on my side of the door. All the energy went through the door and through my pelvis and jim, who was a tall guy in a little car, unfortunately snapped his neck and was gone instantly. Oh, yeah, it was. It was not good.

Andrew: 9:04

The two girls in the back were relatively unscathed, all things considered. One had a broken ankle, one had a a gash above her eyebrow. Other than that, you know, the three of us the fact that we were even alive was, um, was incredible. Uh, the car was, was crumpled around the tree. It took them at least 90 minutes to to cut us out and medevac me by helicopter to the trauma center for fear of internal bleeding. Other than having my pelvis exploded by all that energy going through it, uh, other than that I I didn't, literally didn't have a scratch on me, um, so I was really blessed and that kind of planted this seed of wondering about you know being protected by God and angels and, you know, started me thinking about you know more important questions in life that would one day lead me down a road of spirituality.

Andrew: 10:01

Right, that was an inflection point in your life then of spirituality, right, that was an inflection point in your life then. No, no doubt about it. It it, you know, it did. I didn't wake up, you know, and change my ways right away, but it planted the seed and I began changing. There was no doubt. I woke up in the hospital room or came to. I was conscious the whole time, but my brain has taken the memory of it, which tell you the truth. I don't mind, I don't want to remember being stuck in that car for 90 minutes with Jim laying on top of me. I can't imagine. So I'm grateful I don't remember. But I came to in the hospital room and I say that when I woke up in that hospital room, I was not the same person who had gotten out of bed that morning, for sure.

Todd: 10:45

Oh, my word. And so then, after the accident, in the months after you developed an opioid addiction, right?

Andrew: 10:52

Yeah, 18 years old, 2002. This happened October 28, 2002. They just filled me up with Percocets 10 milligram Percocets. No warnings, no worries about withdrawal and addiction. No warnings, no information. Just take one pill every four to six hours, as needed for pain. And after a year and a half it was one day it was well, you're all fine now. So we're not giving you these pills. Next thing, I know I was in deep withdrawal. I had no idea what withdrawal was. Next thing, I know I'm just, I'm sick, I'm nervous, I'm sweating. All I could think about was getting more of those pills. I had no idea what was happening to me and it freaked me out. And that's really started the addiction going down the wrong road for me. Wow, yeah, I. You know I always look back on that and wish they had never given me any painkillers, at least opiate painkillers. Tylenol would have served me better, especially considering all of the problems that the addiction had created for me in my life.

Todd: 11:58

Right, I was reading a book from one of the GWAT veterans coming back who had been wounded terribly. He got addicted to opioids and he said the opioids coming off of those were worse than the injuries. Just terrible impact.

Andrew: 12:12

Man, it's no doubt a very, very tough thing to go through. And you know they change the makeup of your brain. You know they actually change the way your neurons fire. They make you dependent on it. You know, not just physically but mentally. You know, and it really it turned me into a person I didn't want to be, that's for sure. You know I was running from the withdrawal every day and it, you know it, made you desperate. And you know that's when you hear about drug addicts doing crazy things, you know, getting arrested, and these crazy stories on the news. And it's just because of how, how incredibly difficult of a place you find yourself in with that addiction. It's really not good.

Todd: 12:53

That's rough man. You had a tumultuous childhood.

Andrew: 12:57

It was nothing, if not eventful, there's no doubt about that. But you know, looking back now, thankfully, you know I had a lot to learn from. So there was a lot of growth there for me, which I'm grateful for. I don't know if everybody commits themselves to learning and growing from all of their experiences that way, but I have and thankfully I've been able to transform a lot of it Excellent.

Todd: 13:22

Now I want to read a quote from your book and then ask a question about that. Yeah, sure.

Andrew: 13:27

You said this.

Todd: 13:28

around the time of these events, you said, long before I entered a cult, I was already being shaped by forces and events that I didn't understand. So is it safe to say, then, that your childhood made you more susceptible to the lure of a cold?

Andrew: 13:43

Yeah, no doubt about it. I believe that for sure. The need to redefine who I was and my image being made fun of and ridiculed me wondering who I was, having felt like missed out on my potential missed opportunities. I wanted to be a lawyer. When I went to school, I mean, I did nothing.

Andrew: 14:06

I passed, uh, high school with a c plus average and you know I'm the kind of person who should have been getting straight a's really, and you know I I look back on it as really a missed opportunity. So that certainly played a large part of it. And, and you know, I had some experiences that I talk about in the book as far as at night, during my dreams, there were actually waking nightmares that I had seeing these. I don't even know what they were, but they looked like people. I used to wake up in the middle of the night and they'd be standing silently in my room just staring at me, and this happened weekly for almost 10 years and it was incredibly scary. And that was another thing that left me with a lot of questions about wondering what it was and opened me up to conspiracy theories and asking about the nature of life and things like this. For sure?

Todd: 15:01

Yeah, so your childhood parents split up. When you were born, your dad wasn't really around that much. Kids making fun of you joining the gang and then they terrible accident losing your friend jim. That's just setting the table, man, it's yeah, it was.

Andrew: 15:18

Yeah, it was heavy. It was definitely heavy. That quote is a good one. I appreciate you pulling it out because you know those events really did. You know they're so unique and they did put me in this unique place that made me susceptible to you know one of these high control groups, right?

Todd: 15:37

Yeah, when I'm reading the book, I hit a lot of these quotes and you just have to stop and go. That's deep and there's a lot of that in the book. So I appreciate you sharing those thoughts, man. It's good.

Andrew: 15:48

Yeah, absolutely. You know I tried to dig out everything that I could. As far as you know, when I wrote the book, really Nothing was off the table. You know, I just tried to bear it all and speak my truth. I'm somebody who's you know, thanks to what I went through as a kid with my father, you know I've learned to be very comfortable in my skin and I thought it would be best if I put it all out there, and that's what I did. I didn't hold anything back.

Todd: 16:16

Yeah, so let's switch gears and let's talk about your journey into the cult. Let's start with this. What is the origin of this? Love has Won cult.

Andrew: 16:26

So the origin I mean at the very beginning, I mean started one day with Amy Carlson meeting this gentleman online who claimed to be Father God His name was Amoreth, as I believe this story goes and met him online and she thought he was Father God.

Andrew: 16:44

She was eating dinner one night with her children and her mother sisters a family dinner literally got up from the table and said I'm leaving and left the house and never came back and they thought maybe she's going to the store I mean, nobody would ever think she was leaving like that but she literally just got up from the table and never came back and went in and sought this gentleman named amaranth, who called himself amaranth white eagle father god, and convinced amy that she was mother god.

Andrew: 17:14

And she started doing these videos and you could still find them on youtube and she eventually split from him and said I am Mother God, but he's not really Father God. And then, you know, every male who came in front of her caught her eye. From that point on became Father God from 2012, 2011, 2012, all the way to 2021, when she passed. You know, all the men that she was engaged with became her father God because she was mother God. But obviously there's a lot more that happened, you know, leading up to it and before she passed in 2021. But that's kind of how it all started, with this man who convinced her she was mother God, and then she took the reins and just ran with it.

Todd: 18:02

I mean I'm laughing about the fact that people make up titles and grandiose titles, but in reality, I mean it's a really sad situation. She had her own issues growing up as well that led her to be susceptible to that, I'm sure I don't know anything about her, though.

Andrew: 18:18

Sure, sure, yeah. I mean it doesn't take a genius really to put two and two together. It doesn't take a genius really to put two and two together. You know somebody like that. The title for her was. You know it was supposed to be a mask and a defense mechanism, but it turned into her prison.

Todd: 18:35

Oof, that's deep dude.

Andrew: 18:38

It turned into her prison. The Mother God persona was something that she undertook really to protect herself, to not look at and deal with the issues that she had, and in the end it became the prison that killed her.

Todd: 18:52

Oh my goodness, it's tragic dude and it is a sad story.

Andrew: 18:56

Like you said, you know, in the long run it's a sad story. She, when she did pass away, you know she had been slowly falling into worse and worse health. She asked for help to see a doctor and, because of her own teachings, her followers told her no, if we take you to the hospital, they're going to assassinate you. That's what you've taught us. So we can't take you to a hospital because they'll assassinate Mother God. And she never got any help. Nobody ever took her to a doctor and, like I said, the Mother God persona really became the person that ended up killing her.

Todd: 19:32

That belief system she came up with was her demise. Wow, so how did you first encounter the cult?

Andrew: 19:41

They had a website where they aggregated content online and posted it in one place. So when I was searching for articles on conspiracy theories or spirituality, I didn't have to go from website to website searching and spending lots of time. This is good, this is not good. She thought a lot like I did, and the articles that she chose to pick on her website all really resonated with me in that way. So when I found her website, you know it was perfect because I didn't have to go searching for all these other articles.

Andrew: 20:11

What I didn't realize was that's where the isolation began, because I started cutting off everything else and I was just taking in the information that was coming from her in her website. And after a days I realized there was a button in the top right corner that said you know, join our chat room. And I eventually one day went in the chat room and saw there's 20, 30 people in here all talking about the same things I'm interested in People asking questions about life and spirituality that I'm interested in. Here's this girl very pretty, seems to be very intelligent. Her screen name says Mother God, but I didn't realize what that meant at first. And there was another guy with a screen name Archangel, michael and Horace, and you don't think much of it. In a spiritual community, people have screen names of all kinds of stuff like this, so it's not a big deal. And it wasn't until a week or so in when I asked her about the screen name and I had an idea. I heard her call herself mother god a couple times and she actually told me like no, it's not a screen name, I am mother god. And kind of laughed and then she went on, just you know, like it was no big deal, like she had been asked that question a million times and didn't really want to spend too much time explaining it to anybody.

Andrew: 21:25

Who was I? I was just some guy showing up in a chat room, you know, kind of challenging her almost. And you know I was in a place where I just I was soaking up everything. I had crashed my worldview with conspiracy theories. I didn't know what to believe, but I wanted to believe it was true. I wanted to believe I had found something that was like a hidden gem and that I had stumbled upon something sacred and incredible. And I, just I was in a place where I was really green and I was susceptible to believing almost anything if you can make it make sense.

Todd: 21:58

Got it Now. How did you go from these online interactions to actually joining the group in person?

Andrew: 22:04

Yeah, good question. So you know, I'd spent a couple weeks with them and had just gotten to know them really well. You know, I had kicked my opiate addiction and I spent, you know, 10 days no sleep, actually spent a lot of that time in the chat room, and I got to know them well and I had these dreams of Amy for like three, four, five nights in a row. After a couple of nights I wondered if I should tell her. I was like no, no, this is too weird. You don't want to tell somebody that. It wasn't until I had the same kind of dreams and she was still in there for another few nights in a row that I thought to myself like no, okay, I have to tell her, because this is just way too crazy. And I told her about it, she said oh my god, I've been dreaming of you too.

Andrew: 22:50

And, uh, looking back and knowing her now I know that wasn't true at all, but that was amy when she saw an opportunity, she jumped on it and, um, she had seen a new guy and a shiny new toy she wanted, and that was me. She said yeah, I've been dreaming of you too. I asked her what it meant and she says. It means you're supposed to join us here with the team. You know you have a big role to play. It's really important. We have a place for you here. My guides, my angels, are telling me that you belong here and, yeah, you have a big role to play. So we need you to come join the team as fast as you can. Something's happening really big, don't know what, but you have to get here for it as fast as you can, and that was how it all started so it felt great being wanted.

Todd: 23:35

But now you realize she was just. She pounced, you were prey to her right.

Andrew: 23:39

Yeah, essentially I was. I was prey. She saw a shiny new toy and you know, then, while I was with the team nine, ten months, I saw, you know, her catch that same eye for gosh, two or three other guys while I was there and you know, it was just like a broken record and by the time she passed away in 2021, she probably had gosh, 15 different men that she considered father God to her mother God, and I didn't know that's what she intended for me. She told me I had an important role to play, but I still thought I'd just be a member of the team, kind of in the background doing my thing. And it wasn't until the second or third day that I was there that she told me she gave me the Father God talk, as I call it, and pretty much yeah, told me, this is, this is.

Andrew: 24:23

You know what's planned for you and you know, head in my hands, didn't know how to take it and, very overwhelming, I was in shock, especially after showing up, and the first thought I had was I made a huge mistake because the house was a mess. She was in an incoherent state, it was. It was terrible. The very first thought I had when I arrived was wow, I made a mistake. And then, just of days later, she's telling me this about being father God. And it was just. I stayed overwhelmed for months from that point on.

Todd: 24:54

Yeah, so can you tell us a little bit more detail about when you arrived at the mission house? Is that?

Andrew: 24:58

what they called it, the mission house.

Andrew: 25:00

Yeah, yeah, they did call it the mission house and I took a five and a half hour taxi south after arriving at denver airport and I showed up at about 5 30 am and, uh, the team I didn't know but had been on a mushroom trip from not that night but the night before wow and um, we're partying, and a bunch of them had just gone to sleep. A couple hours before I arrived, at 5.30 am it was still dark out. But Amy, I didn't know this at the time, but she drank as well, not only mushrooms, but she was drinking and she would hate to go to sleep. She would fight sleep and stay awake as long as she could and just keep drinking. By the time I showed up at the house, I took one step in. I looked to the left in the kitchen. The dishes were piled over the sink.

Andrew: 25:46

Nobody had cleaned the place in weeks. It looked like a bomb had gone off. Ash trays overflowing with cigarettes and ashes, a layer of dust on the table they worked from. The place was a mess. Amy was, with her back, turned to me as I'm walking in and Michael is holding her shoulders and it looked like he was just holding her in her seat and as I came around to actually see her face, I realized she was completely drooped over. She had drool coming out of her mouth, hitting her pants were wet from where she had been drooling on them. She was totally, totally incoherent, couldn't even greet me, couldn't even lift her head to say hello. Michael told her he says Andrew's here, mj, and she just let out this like muffled giggle and I thought to myself oh my God, what am I doing here? I just made a terrible, terrible mistake and that was how I was introduced to the team.

Todd: 26:50

And in that book you summarized it with she's not God, she's a drunk.

Andrew: 26:55

Yeah, pretty much that was my first thought, and I wasn't wrong, right.

Todd: 27:00

And you had no money to escape at that point. You were just kind of trapped at that point.

Andrew: 27:06

Yeah, it's kind of ironic because she had offered, when she told me I had to come right away, she had offered to pay for my plane ticket. And I said, no, I have enough money to pay for a plane ticket and get there. And I had to leave my dog behind because she essentially said yeah, just come real fast, whatever's happening will happen, and then you can go back for your dog and go get your car from the airport. And once I got in there and I didn't have money, all of a sudden they weren't willing to give me the money for a plane ride to go back and go get my car, go get my dog. So I lost my car in the airport and eventually got towed away after a couple months.

Andrew: 27:44

You know, mom was freaking out looking for the car. I hadn't paid the bill and my dog, who I had no intention of leaving behind, had to go and stay with my grandmother for gosh. I hadn't seen him for eight months almost while I was with the team because she wouldn't let me go get my dog or help me with the funding. And it was a hard lesson and right from the start things were not working out the way that I thought they were going to. It was definitely a challenge in lots of ways that I did not see coming.

Todd: 28:20

Right, yeah, I mean immediately you get there. You're like this ain't right. Yeah, something's not right here, but you decided to stay I did, aside from not having the money to escape, what kept you there?

Andrew: 28:34

The fact that it was hard to stay told me that it felt like it was showing me that that's where growth was going to come from. I didn't go there because I thought it was going to be easy and fun. I went there because I thought that there would be growth there for me and that I would find myself, and I didn't expect that to come easy. I did know that it was going to come in ways I didn't quite expect, even though this was way off in the extreme from what I anticipated.

Andrew: 29:09

I also had a few spiritual experiences before I joined the team, during meditation, things that had never happened to me before Images, seeing images in meditation, getting messages that were not like thoughts but like somebody planted ideas in your head. It's very easy to tell if it happens to you, but it's hard to explain, and I heard audible voices and I saw an orb on the beach. This is all within two weeks before I joined the team and it felt like I was being given signs that were pointing me in this direction and because of those things, they were like fuel that convinced me to stay. Without those, I probably would have run the other way. I might not have even joined in the first place.

Todd: 30:00

Right. Thanks for sharing that Now let's talk about the group dynamics. What made it a cult?

Andrew: 30:07

Oh man, you know it's so funny. When I was first asked if I thought it was a cult when I joined, when the story blew up in 2021, I used to say no. And it wasn't until I really started to process things and really think about it that I realized no, this definitely was a cult, because of the control mechanisms, because it was a belief system that required you believing it and not asking questions, not challenging the leader. You know Amy had control of the group. What she said went. You know, if you challenged her at all, she didn't talk to you about it. She wouldn't like talk you through the, the issues that you took with the belief system and the things that didn't make sense.

Andrew: 30:54

How can you claim to be god? You say you have no ego, you say you're perfect, but here you have a clearly of a drinking problem and when you do drink, you spend the nights telling stories for hours and you're crying. You're telling stories about your childhood and you're do drink. You spend the nights telling stories for hours and you're crying. You're telling stories about your childhood and you're crying, or you're angry, you're upset, you're, you're happy, you're back and forth and it's clear that you have issues there and it's just. It doesn't make sense.

Andrew: 31:18

And instead of having those conversations, if you brought that stuff up, you were mocked, you were ridiculed, uh, you were made to feel stupid in a way that kind of prevented you from wanting to ever bring it up again and most of the team members didn't. It just was easier to go along with it. So it was really those control mechanisms and the belief overpowering the truth and not having the ability to really ask questions. You know, those are the things that convinced me that. You know, this wasn't just, you know, a bunch of hippies, you know, running a website and smoking some pot. This was definitely a cult from the start because of the control mechanisms and the fact that everything flowed up to the leader. You know, then back down again as far as control goes.

Todd: 32:09

Right, and that's not a unique scenario. I mean, there are companies that operate that way, there are churches that operate that way. You got one person imposing their will on an entire organization and there's also money involved, so can you talk about the money aspect of it?

Andrew: 32:24

Sure, so the team wasn't making a lot of money. When I first showed up and I showed up with digital marketing skills, I revamped the websites. I built her a website just for these spiritual healing sessions that she was doing. You know, she would get on the phone with people and it was kind of like a therapy session with a spiritual twist to it, and she would claim to talk to people's angels, put them on hold and give them messages, and she was very good at it, even though I don't believe she was actually speaking with anybody's angels.

Andrew: 32:56

But you know, people wanted to believe this stuff. You know, there's just something happens to people when they crash their worldview and start looking into conspiracy theories and then into spirituality. It's like the osmosis or the attrition of it all puts you in this place where you start creating your own reality based on the things you want to be true, because you start believing in the subjective nature of reality that you can kind of. You know your thoughts have control over what's true or what happens, and in some cases, metaphysics has proven that to be true in some ways, which doesn't really help people who take it too far.

Andrew: 33:37

And uh, when it came to money, anyway, she was doing these spiritual healing sessions went from like 1200 people a day to the website, which is good, to I mean days. We're hitting 40, 50 000 people a day. She had months where her schedule was booked solid with these spiritual healing sessions. We were getting donations of five dollars, we were getting donations of five thousand dollars and it was crazy, we, we, all of a sudden we were rolling and we were making five figures a month after just a few months and suddenly money.

Andrew: 34:12

The more money we made, the more money became important to her yeah, and this guy, michael, controlled all the money, right he controlled everything that was legal, facing as far as credit cards, the website registration, cell phone, internet bank accounts, anything that needed somebody to actually sign up. His name went on everything. She trusted him. He was there before everybody after Amarith and in the beginning, was there before everybody after Amarith and in the beginning, and she put everything in Michael's name and it was no surprise to anybody that at the end of it all he walked away with hundreds of thousands of dollars, because we all saw that coming, that's for sure.

Todd: 34:56

He cashed out. It's a story as old as time.

Andrew: 34:59

Yeah, no doubt, and I can imagine you got people out there isolated alone.

Todd: 35:02

I can imagine you got people out there, isolated alone, looking for something, a sense of belonging, and then they encounter this website.

Andrew: 35:10

Man, it's easy pickings, yeah it really is and everybody that came and joined the team physically. It was the same process. They find the website, then they find the chat room. They become a regular in the chat room. They feel that pull and then they come and join the team. That was the path for every single person who had ever joined the team. There was no joining, there was no other way to join the team and everybody was pulled in the same way.

Andrew: 35:40

Most people would figure it out after a couple months and leave, whether they were a physical member or just a chat room member. It was like you know, our members were revolving door regulars because they would figure out as a bunch of bull and then leave. But the members who were physically there wasn't so easy because most of them had given up all of their money, had broken off ties with their family, had left. You know not such good terms as you can can imagine. Most families are not happy about somebody who leaves and comes and joins this cult as it appears to them, even if we didn't believe it was a cult at the time. So it's hard to go back to your life. You get stuck in this cult and that's what happened for a lot of people.

Todd: 36:23

And this happens in churches across the world. You get the church, that organization and I'm not bagging on churches, so don't get me wrong but it happens you end up in a bad place where there's a toxic environment in an organization, whether it's a church or a company or whatever. But that's your social fabric. It is so difficult to break free from that. So that's why I mean is so difficult to break free from that. So that's why I mean I'm reading this book and I'm not sitting here going, oh man, these people are. You know, man, they should have just left. I'm not thinking that at all because I understand you can be stuck and that is, you love the people that are with you too.

Andrew: 36:59

That's another thing, you know. I mean we are all human right, so even in a cult you're going to have great times with people, because everybody's got good personalities. We had lots of good moments, so there's a lot of endearing qualities to the people and the environment. I mean it was positive in a lot of ways, but you were obviously overshadowed by the fact that a belief system that was completely delusional controlled the bubble that you were in that was floating further and further away from reality and because you had no connections to the outside world, you didn't realize how far away from reality you had actually moved.

Andrew: 37:40

Yeah, and then after you arrived, more money's in, so there's plenty of cash for mushrooms and all kinds of stuff, so oh yeah, a lot, of, a lot of the mushroom trips every friday night like clockwork and it was like work. Um, to the point where, you know, guys would say on friday morning they'd try to say I don't think I'm gonna be doing it tonight. You know, try to get ahead of the curve would be the first one to say I'm not doing it. So like nobody else can say, oh, I'm not doing it. So like nobody else can say oh, I'm not doing it tonight.

Andrew: 38:08

Because it just it became like like work and it really was. It was like work with the mushrooms it did for for a while it just it felt like, you know, you had no choice but to do what you were told. It was just easier to go along than it was to stand up and challenge and become that target and open yourself up to all the ridicule, being laughed at, being mocked, being singled out. It was just easier to keep your mouth shut and enjoy the good times and not try to right the ship. At first that's kind of the path that I was on, and then at some point things changed and I took a completely different stance.

Todd: 38:54

Now you had a relationship with Amy. Can you share a bit about that?

Andrew: 38:59

Yeah, sure, when she gave me that Father God talk on my second or third day there, telling me that I was supposed to become father god and all of this, you know, she sent me into shock. But, um, after a couple minutes of giving me that talk, she, she went to leave the room to let me kind of gather myself and she gets to the door and she turns around and she says, oh, when you're ready to make love, let me know. And then shuts the door behind her and leaves like, just just flat, like that, no laugh, no giggle, no smile, just. And I thought to myself, oh my god, that hit me like a ton of bricks, just as hard as the whole father god thing, because I I had no intentions of going there and having a relationship with her and it scared me, I was terrified. I had no attraction to her like that and I didn't want any part of it. And I thought to myself I don't know what to do. And it just it felt like so much pressure that I said to myself you know, in for a penny, in for a pound. Maybe I justified it by telling myself, maybe I'm being challenged to overcome my superficial needs for how somebody looks or what I look for in a girl or a match or a mate. Maybe I'm being challenged to focus on the person inside and that's how I justified it to myself and I kind of bit the bullet and it took time for me to really get comfortable in a relationship with her.

Andrew: 40:25

But eventually I grew to care about her very much and it wasn't more than I don't know a week that I was there, that you know we had become I guess you could say an item, a couple, and you know we were sharing a bedroom. I wasn't sleeping upstairs with the guys or, you know, on one of the blow-up mattresses or anything. I was next to her. It was her and me kind of running the show. Nobody questioned that she was in charge, but you know I was. I was a leader of the group all of a sudden and I was expected to be on all the videos and take a much larger role, all the while being in a relationship with her, and we grew very close over. You know it ended up being a whole year from start to all the way.

Todd: 41:11

at the end it was about a year and we grew very close, right, very close you said you were very kind to amy through this, so I I appreciate how you treated that in the book.

Andrew: 41:21

So I appreciate that I I appreciate you mentioned it means a lot to me that that you recognize that I really set out not to not to do her any favors in particular, but to tell the truth, which is a human story, and she, at the end of the day, she wasn't God, but she was a person with issues, with damage that never really gotten, that never really got you know, taken care of or focused on, and that's the tragedy of it all. But at the end of the day, she had great moments, she was a great person to be around sometimes and I wanted to show that side of her because I felt like all anybody knew was this crazy, angry, wild. I am God side of her that made a caricature of her and I wanted people to get a better, more holistic view.

Todd: 42:11

Right, she was human. So I appreciate that. Now, at some point now let's switch gears. Talk about how you exposed the truth. Now you realize things aren't right from day one. You're trying to make changes, but there was a major event that happened that really tipped the scales for you. Can you talk about that?

Andrew: 42:30

Yeah, sure. So we had a team member who created an incredible hoax that went on for months for the team he created. He used his skills, which were considerable, in software and computer knowledge, to pretend to be these fake beings who joined our chat room, five or six of them talking in unison in ways that one person couldn't do. I mean all starting, ending, continuing, finishing each other's sentences, talking in unison, saying things that were very spiritually based, claiming to be from, as I said, another galaxy. And they created this. He created this ruse. That was just so incredible. He also made fake team members or people who joined the chat room and, like one lady I wrote in the book, you know, had this issue where her mother had passed away and her husband had lost his job. They were losing everything. The mother's will was the saving grace, but the mom had died and not told anybody about it and she was freaking out, asking these beings in chat if they could help, and they were like, oh yeah, it's upstairs, under the mat, under the floorboards, you'll find a box. Open it up and you'll find the will. This lady leaves chat. I remember being in the room. We're all looking at each other like, okay, we're not gonna see this person ever come back again. Whoever these weird beings are that are claiming to be so spiritual in our chat whoever this is that's doing this is obviously, you know, kind of outed themselves when this lady doesn't come back and um 15 minutes later, this lady shows back up in the chat room and says oh my god, you were right, you found it. The the will was there where you said it was. My family is saved. We're going to be able to, you know, get my mother's house and all the things that she left for us. This is so incredible and our chat room exploded. We went from 30 people a night to literally 250 300 people coming into our chat room exploded. We went from 30 people a night to literally 250, 300 people coming into our chat room to see these beings.

Andrew: 44:24

When word of this got out the whole time, we had a team member in the corner of our room who was doing all of this. He was making all of these fake names and doing all of this and he essentially took control of the team by claiming that these beings were supposed to help amy lead humanity into this golden age, this awakening which we were all working towards. Amy's guides said oh yeah, they're legit. She went into meditation, came back out. Yes, this is really happening. We're supposed to follow what they say.

Andrew: 45:00

Well, these beings elevated this one person to the team healer. Next thing I know he's supposed to be a trine, not just me and amy in a relationship, but he's like the third wheel, like it's supposed to be a triangle. He has a big role to play. It's not just andrew or Father God and Mother God, it's Horace now too, and I have to figure out a way to make space for him in our relationship. He is taking her into healing sessions every night when she is plastered, and then I'm hearing moaning coming out of those healing sessions and I'm asking her about it and she's telling me it's all in my head. All of this he had created as a rose to elevate himself, to get her alone, to take advantage of her sexually. It was the sickest, most incredible hoax. And you know, really I had never seen anything on the scale and effort it took him to pull this off, wow, and it took months.

Andrew: 46:01

But I eventually started to realize some things wasn't right and I started saving the transcripts so that I could go back and check things they say.

Andrew: 46:11

And then one thing led to another and I just I came to realize it was this person in the corner of our room and I had set, I had been setting him up and watching him, I was challenging them and watching his body language and I had enough.

Andrew: 46:27

It's in the book. But I had enough information to say, yeah, 100, this is him doing this and I can prove it. And, um, I eventually uncovered that and it was it. When I did figure it out, it kind of hit me all in one moment all the lying, the deception, the her telling me she wasn't having sex with him, all of the lies, the gaslighting, everything. It just became clear. And there's one moment, like being struck by lightning, and it was in that moment where I said enough, and somebody needs to take a hold of what's happening here, because this is getting out of hand. And that's when I committed myself to absolutely destroying the mother god persona and the delusion and doing my best to snap Amy out of it and bring the truth back to our group and snap us back into reality.

Todd: 47:22

Yeah, good on you, man. So Amy knows the truth at this point. But then she and Michael get together, and then what happens?

Andrew: 47:31

So, yeah, I was able to eventually convince her to the point where she went outside and had a talk with KG and kicked him out of the house and kg.

Todd: 47:39

Is the guy who committed the hoax or carried it out?

Andrew: 47:43

correct and kicked him out of the house and didn't want to believe it and had a talk with michael. Didn't want to believe it but obviously it was at this point there was no denying it. You know kg was gone and so were these beings. Suddenly they didn't show up in chat anymore and you know there was no denying it. But she had talked with michael for a few minutes privately and came out and said to me in front of the whole team that they had decided, her and michael, that we weren't going to tell any of the people who followed us in the chat room or any of our followers about this, that it was going to get swept under the rug and kept quiet because it exposed amy for not being mother.

Andrew: 48:24

God, her guides that said that they were real. You know for months, all of her guides and all of these powers that she has, you know being psychic in these ways and everything was shattered by this hoax. You know being found out and I was given the ultimatum to keep my mouth shut or leave, and especially in front of the team. And you know for me that wasn't even a choice, it was. You know I had committed to the truth and you know it wasn't going to be a sellout and I looked at them both and I kind of laughed at at them and because I pitied them in that moment right they were making, they're finally making the conscious decision to choose lies and deceit and betrayal of their followers instead of, like this, awakening and support light love, which is what we all had shown up on this. That's what I thought we were here for.

Andrew: 49:19

And uh, now you're telling me you're making a conscious decision to do the opposite. I'm not having it. I walked over to the laptop, I typed it all out, I pressed send and I looked at her. I said you do what you got to do, but now it's too late, it's out there. And, um, that was it. I, I didn't get kicked out, she didn't want to let me go so easily. But uh, yeah, that that was the moment. That was one of the big forks in the road where she made that choice to take things in that direction.

Todd: 49:50

And one thing that struck me from the book is that after this happened, you knew the truth and you were like I'm no longer participating in the delusion, and this speaks highly of you, because you continued to care for Amy physically as you try to talk her out of the delusion. So what was going on there?

Andrew: 50:07

Yeah, that was a tough one for me. In that moment, when I first was able to uncover this hoax, I got her to admit that she wasn't God, motherlosing God. You know, she had this moment where she spent about five, ten minutes crying, sobbing lightly to me and admitting everything and saying that she believed what I was saying, which was that, you know, you don't have to be Mother God to do amazing things, to have a great effect on the world. You know all these people that follow you, they would follow you without the name or the title. You don't have to pretend to be mother god to be able to do all these great things.

Andrew: 50:45

And she was buying it and I could see, you know, starting to crack through the defenses a little bit and it gave me hope, even though five minutes with michael and she reeled her right back in and she was mother God again. It was like all the work I had done was just gone out the window. But, you know, I committed myself to really trying to snap her out of that delusion and I swore I was going to be able to do it and I thought I was and eventually, you know, I had to admit defeat in that sense, because she didn't, she didn't want to change right and then, eventually, you decided that it's time to go.

Todd: 51:24

So can you talk about the, the day you left?

Andrew: 51:27

yeah, it all happened because she had obviously found a new father god. I couldn't be father god anymore because I didn't believe, uh. So. So somebody else had to fill in the role, and you know whoever the father God was, somebody that she started to feel attraction towards, and we had been in a relationship for nine months. And now I'm watching her snuggle up to this guy in front of me, in front of the whole team, even though she told me he's going to be father God, but you and I we're going to stay in a relationship and I'm not going to have any physical relationship with him, but he's going to carry the role of Father God is what she essentially told me, and I knew that was a bunch of BS, but, you know, I was partly attached and partly didn't want to leave her behind. I thought I was going to be able to make it work.

Andrew: 52:16

She had disappeared with him a couple of times and didn't come back till the next day, and it was just too much. And that's when I said you know, despite everything, this is just not an experience I want to have. Like, literally in front of my eyes, watch my girl with another man, and I don't want to experience this. So that's when I made my decision to leave and I left the house and love not in you know a bad way, like most people who left usually blew up you're not mother, god. Blah, blah, blah, you know fighting and leave. I didn't leave like that. Uh, hugged, everybody said goodbye.

Andrew: 52:53

The new father god even gave me his car. He wanted me gone so bad. Then he gave me his car to leave. He had liquidated his 401k, he had sold his home, following her advice, because she told him that getting rid of his ego would help him become Father God. And you know, getting rid of his wealth and donating it to her, to love, to the movement, was what would help him dissolve his ego by not holding on to his physical wealth. I had warned this guy a million times and tried to stop it and it was like talking to the happiest brick wall in all of creation and he didn't want to hear it. He wanted the role. So, yeah, he gave me his car because him and michael, who were buddies at that point, they were like, yeah, let andrew go, we're more than happy to see him leave because I was a problem for the belief system to continue.

Todd: 53:48

Yeah, dude, that happens so often. And then you're castigated. I don't know if this happened, but, generally speaking, when this happens in these groups people that decide to leave or if they're kicked out, they're castigated after the fact. Well, he wasn't a true believer, you know he was. He was doing this, and you're diagnosed with some issue. Everybody becomes a demon. Yeah.

Andrew: 54:10

And Amy, she would. She would give everybody a demonic name. She would say that you know, the demon took them over. They were an angel or they were, you know, this ascended master, but now they're a demon because they gave in to the dark side Wow, because they don't believe anymore. That's. That was the same thing for everybody who ever left. You know that's what she would do, just like you said. Anyway, I left the team.

Andrew: 54:33

I had my dog with me at that point, so we got in Bill's car, which was now my car, and started driving. We were going to Fort Lauderdale where my dad had been living at the time. I was super excited and a very happy place. I felt like I had accomplished a lot. I remember going down the road, so happy, wishing people would just look at me going down the road, just so I could smile and wave. I felt like I had conquered the world. At that point I didn't feel bad about leaving the world. At that point, you know, I didn't feel bad about leaving. I felt like I had really found myself and for fighting against the belief system and you know the truth and all of that kind of stuff, and you know, I was proud of myself. I really was Little did I know.

Andrew: 55:12

After about two weeks, after I got to Florida, amy messaged me and said oh, the angels told me I'm being guided to come your direction, to come be with you. And she left the whole team behind, promising me she was going to snap out of the delusion, I had some rules about moving in a new direction and she was down with all of it. Yes, you're right, I'm coming to live with you. We'll leave it behind. No, talking to Michael, we're going to take this in a new direction. The team dissolved back in California. She joined me in Fort Lauderdale and it lasted about two months before I realized she was just giving me lip service. The whole time I thought, having her alone, away from the team, isolated in that way, just the way I was isolated from reality, now I could isolate her in reality and hopefully get through to Amy and snap her out of it. Unfortunately it didn't work, but I tried.

Todd: 56:08

What it says is you've really got game with the ladies. That's what I'm saying, yeah.

Andrew: 56:15

You know what can I say? I had no idea I was going to be in a relationship like that with her. Like I told you, I didn't want it when it started, but it really became. She became somebody I cared about very much and when it comes to people who have had a big effect on my life, she is up there near the top no doubt about it.

Todd: 56:37

Yeah, yeah, so Andrew's next book is going to be on how to develop your game with the ladies.

Andrew: 56:42

I'm kidding totally yeah, I'll have to work on my game a little bit more before I'm willing to write a book on that, but things, things worked out with her in a good way and even after we broke up, she, she tried to get me back for a little while, to the point where it came almost like uh, stalking meing me. I was getting things in my mailbox, messages from her, people were knocking on my door, people were messaging me asking me to come back, but she wanted me to come back to that belief system and I wasn't going in that direction.

Todd: 57:13

Game over at that point, yeah, yeah. So I want to read another quote from your book here. You said this about Amy. You said to truly understand her is to understand when unhealed trauma wears a crown, when a person's pain masquerades as something divine and no one around them dares to say otherwise. Then you go on to say that's not just her story, it's the cautionary tale beneath all of this. Imagine trying to live up to that as a person with a drinking problem and unresolved trauma. Dude, that hit home with me, man. And you're looking past all of the outward things to the heart of the person, man. So I appreciate you doing that. So when I said you were being kind to her, I appreciate that, man, it's true.

Andrew: 57:56

Thank you I appreciate that and you know I'm glad to hear that you picked up on that and that means other people will too, because that was, that was the intention and that's really what I wanted to get to. And you know I've got. I've come to this place where I've learned in life that you know, especially after you know I dealt with cancer as I wrote in a book in the last few years, I realized, you know, we're all human, we all make mistakes. It's not her fault that you know things happen to her. It was her responsibility to deal with them and to transform them.

Andrew: 58:31

Yes, but I don't hate or begrudge her for the mistakes she made. I really do believe that she was well-intentioned and she believed. I never caught on to the fact that she was outwardly lying about it, even if she had so much proof in her face staring at her. For some reason something just wasn't clicking for her and I just I have learned to allow people this space to be human and has really made life easier and has allowed me to accept myself, to accept other people and even Amy, for all that she had done wrong and all the mistakes she had made and all the bad things you can say in my life, she has had an incredibly positive influence, even though it was not in the way she intended had an incredibly positive influence, even though it was not in the way she intended.

Todd: 59:25

Man, I appreciate that perspective. Dude, you found yourself through all of this, and so my perspective is that good things they emerged for you in the aftermath of all of this. Can you talk about that? I think you used the phrase an unraveling of your worldview. What grew?

Andrew: 59:37

out of that.

Andrew: 59:38

Yeah, and that's essentially where it started was with a blank slate. You know, after these conspiracy theories crashed my old worldview, she came in and said here I'll build you a new one. And then I had to crash that one, in that moment where I felt like I was struck by lightning when I uncovered the hoax, that's when my worldview got crashed again and I, this time, I built it myself on truth, on reality, on actuality, on love, on real love, not the fake love she was teaching me. But the difference between that and what real love was Just had to square a couple circles, I guess, with the reality, the belief system that I was given.

Andrew: 1:00:18

And it took some time and, like I had told you earlier, it wasn't until I wrote the book that I really processed a lot of this. You know some, some things that I thought I had dealt with. I realized that I hadn't until I started writing the book. And even in this moment you know I don't say I'm done or I've transformed, I've processed you know, I'm still seeking to overcome, I'm still seeking to be that person I want to be. I don't know if that journey ever ends for us, but I can say that I'm happy with where I am and the progress that I'm making.

Todd: 1:00:51

And you also trained jujitsu. Yeah, so yeah.

Andrew: 1:00:54

Fun times that was awesome. That was awesome. Fort Lauderdale amazing school really good time. I suggest it for anybody. Have you ever done anything like that?

Todd: 1:01:03

yeah, I trained jujitsu for about five years and, uh, I read in the last few months I had to stop back injuries and stuff. I was not a good training partner because I just couldn't move. So it was yeah, I just had to peel off there's.

Andrew: 1:01:17

There's a lot of movement, definitely in jujitsu. You know being able to move is important and you know I keep telling myself that I'd like to get back into. They have a school not too far from here that has a similar curriculum to what I learned, but that became a really positive influence in my life, especially in the days immediately following leaving the team. You know it was really good for me to get involved with that.

Todd: 1:01:42

I was listening to the Jocko podcast years and years ago and he kept talking about how good jujitsu was for you and I decided to try it out, so I'm glad I did. Man, it's so hard and you progress so slowly because the movements are just not natural, so I enjoyed it. I was a blue belt after five years and I had to peel off.

Andrew: 1:02:04

So I missed it, but I'm glad I did it. It's like a sport mixed with science, and trying to learn and reteach your body to react to things in almost the opposite way that you would think. And you're right, you say it well. It's something that takes. It's a slow thing to learn, it takes a lot of effort, but I found it rewarding, as you did. But yeah, it's not easy, that's for sure. It's humbling.

Todd: 1:02:33

I mean, I'm 6'1" and I'm not light, I'm pretty thick and these little dudes would just thrash me man.

Andrew: 1:02:43

So that's the amazing thing about it. You know the Gracies who put Jiu-Jitsu together and you know I was blessed enough to be training with the Valentes, who is the family that grew up with the Gracie family. They are in Fort Lauderdale in Miami is where their home base is, and I was blessed enough to be in this world-class school. You know these guys were the roots of Jiu-Jitsu's creation. You know, growing up with Helio Gracie and the curriculum was just so incredible. I enjoyed it so much. You know, if I could, I would move back there just for this school in a heartbeat because I enjoyed it so much. But you know, it was a really positive influence in my life when I needed something like that to really fill the void and it really did. It was amazing.

Todd: 1:03:28

Dude, it just builds so much character and you connected with people and you just leave a training session just like completely drained and you're just connected with people. Man, I just I loved it.

Andrew: 1:03:39

Man, I miss it, but uh there's a humility that it that it definitely brings. As you said, you know you have to be humble. It's not about strength, it's about technique and skill and, um, it really is a humbling uh sport. And the most amazing thing was the people who learned jujitsu and become dangerous also become the least likely to ever use it against somebody, and it's really interesting. You realize how incredibly dangerous it can be and you just never want to hurt somebody.

Todd: 1:04:14

Yeah, and the reason I never tried martial arts is because I had a misconception about all of this stuff. I thought it would be like I was in the Marines and so I considered it would be like the military where, okay, you're going to get made fun of and they're just going to berate you and all this stuff and people are going to be mean and all. It was dude. It was the nicest people, man, and just the most unassuming people had these skills and so I don't mess with anybody man, not that I ever did, but one thing I learned was don't mess with anyone because they may know something and have been training. Yeah.

Andrew: 1:04:45

So you see, you're getting to. You know fisticuffs or some scuffle with somebody and they step back and stand in a certain way. All of a sudden you're going to realize you're about to be in a world of hurt. Yes, let me read this, but hopefully nobody listening. None of us ever have to find ourselves in that situation. Hopefully it's all good vibes for everybody yeah, yeah.

Todd: 1:05:09

Now your jujitsu journey was, uh, thwarted by stage four cancer. Can?

Andrew: 1:05:14

you tell us about that yeah, um, I was having I thought I had a bad leg day at the gym. I started having pain in my side and my my legs and I thought it was from the car accident. It was nothing new to get pains that. That got pretty rough for a few days and a few days turned into a week, turned into a couple weeks. All of a sudden I'm starting to lose sleep because the pain is so bad. And when it comes to pain I can suck it up. But this pain was bad.

Andrew: 1:05:43

I started going to an orthopedist and here I am worried, being an ecstatic. This kid's just looking for pills. We were not seeing anything wrong. Took an x-ray. I don't see anything wrong with your bones. Can't figure it out. Here's some physical therapy. Physical therapy is making the pain worse. Eventually, one night, two o'clock in the morning, I drive myself to the er because I could hardly stand. My legs were on fire. I crawled to the front desk. I mean sweating. I don't know how I made it to that front desk and I said something's really wrong with me. I need help. I don't know what it is. They gave me a scan and lady came in the room some guy with her because surely she didn't want to break that news to me alone.

Andrew: 1:06:24

She needed somebody to support her wow and she said andrew, I'm sorry but I have really really bad news. You have a late and aggressive stage four testicular cancer. Uh, it's not the pain you thought it was and I'm sorry, but it's already in your lungs. It's spread to your back, by your kidney, your pelvis. You need to remove one of your testicles immediately and, yeah, you're gonna have to get into chemo as fast as you possibly can. But I sit here. That was december of 2022. I sit here right now, 19 or 20 months at this point, completely cancer free oh, not in remission, but cancer free.

Andrew: 1:07:10

I had the only cancer that is curable in stage four wow, oh, man, that's, and I went I went to new jersey to memorial sloan-kettering cancer center world class, uh, best in the world, the coast of home where I'm from, not here in tennessee and they, the first four rounds of chemo, didn't do it. Then I went and did four rounds of high dose chemotherapy. About five months later it came, with a lot of downsides, but it cleared me of the cancer and uh, now I I eat real healthy, I do everything I can to keep it at bay and uh, knock on wood, pray to god that it, it doesn't, it doesn't ever come back oh man, that's great news.

Andrew: 1:07:50

Man, I'm glad you made it it's been a heck of a ride. It wasn't fun. That is an experience that, while I don't wish it on anybody again when it comes to you know making lemonade out of lemons, you know it taught me a lot about life myself and it certainly brought me closer to God.

Andrew: 1:08:09

Nobody should face their mortality at a young age. But for what I've learned I'm grateful. But yeah, heck of a road. It's been a heck of a road. In my 40 years I feel like I've already lived a lifetime. Wow, man, what a great story. So yeah, that of a road, it's been a heck of a road. In my 40 years I feel like I've already lived a lifetime.

Todd: 1:08:21

Wow, man, what a great story. So, yeah, that's a good place to end it. Man, you wrapped it up quite nicely for us, so thank you for those takeaways.

Andrew: 1:08:30

Well, I appreciate it Really. It means a lot to me what you took away from the book. It really means a lot to me that the important things to me were conveyed through the book and you've confirmed that. So thank you.

Todd: 1:08:42

Yeah, it was deep man. I enjoyed it, so I'll put a link in the description. I'll put one of my affiliate links for Andrew's memoir. It's called the War on Love, so if you want to support the channel, you can buy there. Or I'll also include links to Andrew's website, thewaronlovecom. You can buy the book there and then I'll include links to Andrew's socials. So appreciate it, andrew man, I really I'm thankful for this conversation, brother, thankful for the book, dude.

Andrew: 1:09:10

So Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. And to the listeners, thank you for listening. I wish everybody the best. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.

Todd: 1:09:18

Awesome. So thanks for listening to the Cluttered Path. If you liked this episode, please consider leaving us a review. We read every one of those. We appreciate your support and we'll talk soon. Have a great day. Stories about life. Let's get it for tonight.