Todd: 0:00

This is the Cluttered Path, a compass for midlife.

unknown: 0:03

The path is long, the map is born. A little cluttered since you were born. The middle chapters feel unclear. Don't worry, friend, no need to fear.

Todd: 0:14

Many people are chasing the next big self-improvement hack. But what if the most powerful lessons on character, courage, and love were written centuries ago? My guest today is Cheryl Drury, host of a podcast called Crack the Book. What began for her as a personal project to read a year's worth of classic books has become a mission. She wants to show that these old books aren't just relevant in 2025, but they can also be life-changing. Cheryl believes that reading authors like Homer, Shakespeare, and Dante can materially improve your life. And she's here to share why that surprised her and why it matters. Cheryl, welcome to the show.

Cheryl: 0:54

Thank you so much. Glad to be here.

Todd: 0:57

Now, here is why I am pumped about this topic. And I let me start with this. There is this huge misconception about the Marine Corps. I was infantry in the Marines, and there's this idea that in the Marines you just do what you're told, blind obedience to orders and all that stuff, all the discipline and everything. But that's really not the case. And what they encouraged with us was to think for yourselves. And the reality is, all the places I've worked, the place where I found the most intellectual freedom was in the Marine Corps. And one of the things they did was they had reading lists, recommended books that they wanted us to read. And one book that I read over the years, it's called 18 Platoon by a guy named Sidney Jerry. So he was a platoon commander in World War II. This is a very short book, maybe 150 pages. He was a platoon commander in World War II, and he documents their fight from the Battle of Normandy all the way across Europe to the end of World War II. And when they get the end of the war, they had this core group of people in the platoon that still remained. And he was reflecting on things after the war, and he started thinking, well, if I was going to pret pick people for fighting in combat, he said, look, I wouldn't pick brawlers or realists. Instead, he said he would choose poets because they possess imagination. And that's an attribute that he associates with survival, ingenuity, and leadership under battlefield pressure. So that is the importance of reading. So when I saw your profile out there and met you, Cheryl, it was like, we've got to do this. I'd love to have you on the show. So so thank you so much for joining us.

Cheryl: 2:40

Thank you. That's a great story. And it makes me think of Homer, actually, of all things. That's amazing. I didn't know that about the Marine Corps.

Todd: 2:50

Yeah, it's it's I mean, they they just encouraged us to think on on our own. And that's why, I mean, that's really why we won World War II, because the Germans, I mean, there are these stories about army soldiers that just thought on their feet and branched out on their own. And I think it was Audie Murphy that uh he captured a uh a German platoon commander and he said, order your men to surrender. And they did. So if you did that with an American American platoon, they'd be like, No, we're not coming out.

Cheryl: 3:21

Oh heck no.

Todd: 3:22

If you kill him, okay. It wouldn't be that hard.

Cheryl: 3:26

Wow, that's a great story. Oh my gosh, I love that. Yep.

Todd: 3:29

I mean, reading, it just expands your view beyond narrow self-interest and it just fosters creativity. And you know, getting ready for our conversation today, I picked up 18 Platoon again and just reading, rereading some of the passages there, it just oh man, it just pulls you up out of the everyday and just expand your vision beyond, you know, just yourself. So I I love reading.

Cheryl: 3:51

So it's like it's like you're like there's not 80 years between you and the author. You're you're just two guys and you're sitting there. And that's a that's almost miraculous if you think about it.

Todd: 4:04

It's wonderful.

Cheryl: 4:05

That's what I that's one of the things I found on this project. It's been great.

Todd: 4:08

It's good. So let's just jump right in now. Let's start with your story. How did rediscovering the classics become a mission for you?

Cheryl: 4:15

Okay, well, as a kid, you know, I'm a Gen Xer, had a classic public school education. I was a reader as a kid, but as I was thinking about it, I don't remember a single required book in high school that I liked, which is a little weird. But um I remember a couple in particular that I hated, nothing that I loved. And um, and I was I was a kid who was good at math, and so I got steered into engineering. So left high school, had read two Shakespeare plays, that was it. Um, I went to college and Georgia Tech, if you are gonna do a minor in French, like I did, I didn't have to take a single class in English. I got out with a bachelor's degree with with no English classes, and I was proud of that, which I'm kind of embarrassed about now. But you know, just as I'll just share that, I have like virtually no background and anything literature-wise. I um only got what I would could capture on my own. So that was my education. As I got older, you know, you could start feeling like, oh, maybe I should have read this. And so I would pick something up and and read it and and it would be kind of flat because I always felt like whenever I would get an old book, there was something I should have known before this book. Dante, Dante's a really good example. I had tried reading Dante. We were going on a vacation to Florence, and so what better book to read than Dante before you go to Florence? And I, you know, there's all this mythology in Dante, not just, and there's not just like Italian history, there's also like lots of popes. And I just kept feeling like I just feel like this guy thought that I knew a lot more that I have no idea about. And so I read some things occasionally, but I always felt like something was missing. And it was even brought more to the front, you know, how your kids end up educating you. One of my one of my sons majored in philosophy in undergrad. And he was always telling me about what he was reading. And at that point, I had a little bit of time. And so I was interested in what he was reading. But again, it just all felt like it was like he would tell me about it. I wouldn't read it, I wouldn't even open a book. I would just say, well, that's too hard. I'm not gonna read it. So that was kind of like, and and I would get on these little binges. I I got on this Russian binge for a while because I read Gentleman in Moscow and let it lead me down a pass. Um, and that was good, but it just was, you know, I just felt like I was missing something bigger. And I happened on this list about a about two years ago now, this year-long list. And I thought, finally, someone has laid out something that I could try. And it's a year, and I could do a year. And so I started it. So that it was really like discovering the list and my own frustration with myself that combined to start me doing this big project.

Todd: 7:15

And where did you find the list? Where was this?

Cheryl: 7:18

Okay, yes, I need to give full credit. Substack, Ted Joa. He's this very, very interesting guy who is a best-selling music critic and he writes a lot about technology. Just a super interesting guy. And one day he said, A lot of people have said I'm well read. Would I please put a list together? And I haven't done it for years, but I decided I would try to. So here's the first quarter. And, you know, week one is Plato and the death of Socrates. I was like, oh, this is like the real deal. And I had to like, it took me a you know, a little while of knowing that that list was out there before I um actually, because I didn't want it to be a project where it went in one ear and out the other, and I didn't, I didn't come away changed in any way. So I had to kind of feel like I was in a good spot and I knew how I was gonna take notes and I knew what I was gonna do. It was, it was really a project with a big purpose, maybe not to change myself, but to actually learn something.

Todd: 8:14

Nice. Now, how did this journey affect you personally? How did it affect your life so deeply?

Cheryl: 8:20

Well, there is the shallow part where this is a very long sustained effort over time. The the reading list is not for the faint of heart. It's 250 pages a week. Wow.

Todd: 8:32

Yeah.

Cheryl: 8:32

More or less. It's hard reading a lot of the time. We've read Kant, Mary Wollstonecroft, she is not very good. You know, uh Aristotle. So some of the reading isn't easy. Some of it is, and some of it's so fun. But there is just this. When in your midlife do you actually take stuff on mentally that requires discipline and effort? I I think that that is not a very common thing. I certainly haven't done this much since you know college. And so there's that. But then there's also the way these books in particular, I have learned so much about particular things like how the Romans lived and what it was like to be an artist in the Renaissance. And I've learned like big things like what friendship looks like, from what Aristotle talked about to what Homer showed, to what Dante shows. Like friendship is really important. That's a that's a surprising theme that you see across some of a lot of these books, which I wasn't ready for. Love and attitudes towards God, lots of things. I'm a Christian and I read the Bible, but until I really started reading this project, that was the only ancient text I'd ever read. And so reading other ancient texts and other religious traditions has informed my Bible reading an incredible amount. And I ran across a note that I had written in my Bible the other day from a sermon, and it said something about a guy named Boethius, which like a year ago, I didn't know who Boethius was. And now he's my buddy. And he was very thoughtful. And I thought about him enough to write a note about what something the pastor said that was exactly what Boethius had said, and blah, blah, blah. And not to say that I'm a like that's very nerdy, but it's so cool to be able to say, oh, he's saying something today that I read about in this book that's 2,000 years old, that another guy 600 years later also talked about, and it was relevant to him. This is what it is to be human.

Todd: 10:44

Yeah. And the word resonance comes to mind when you you read those things and then you encounter them again because it's something that peaked, something in your head, and it's still resonating there. And then as you go about life, something else triggers it, and you go, Yes. Resonance.

Cheryl: 11:01

Oh, yeah. I've seen that. And and the the fact that you can say something will happen in your life and you go, Oh, black guys saw that too. And this is what it looked like for them. And it's almost like you've had you have a whole group of people who are sharing their experiences with you, which is really what it is, right? That's what these books are, or their thoughts or their beliefs, and like it gives you a bigger um vocabulary with which to talk about the world. Yes. I feel so dumb that it's taken me this long to figure that out.

Todd: 11:34

I know how you feel. It's like, yeah, I should have learned this earlier.

Cheryl: 11:38

Yeah.

Todd: 11:38

But the Bible references these ancient texts, you know, extra biblical biblical stuff. I mean, the apostle Paul talks about, hey, here he gives people, the Greeks, the examples from their own poets. Hey, this is what your poet has said, you know, and he, you know, says, This is what your poet says, this is how it applies. And so he's speaking to them in an area in a way that resonates with them. And so they're sitting there going, ah, right. Okay. That's what reading does for us.

Cheryl: 12:03

So yeah, it's absolutely yeah.

Todd: 12:05

And these these ancient texts are they're so valuable. Now, which book first surprised you? So uh on the when you started reading the list, what's the first book that surprised you?

Cheryl: 12:17

I'm embarrassed to say that it was the first book.

Todd: 12:20

Well, that's good, you know. You don't want to waste time.

Cheryl: 12:24

The first book on the list was The Death of Socrates by Plato.

Todd: 12:28

Okay.

Cheryl: 12:28

I didn't know anything about it. It is a set of four dialogues. So Plato wrote almost everything in dialogue. It's so easy to read. It's like it's reading a conversation. I had no idea. I had no idea. And so they talk about Socrates going on trial and then his trial, and um, the last section is his friends reflecting on who was present at his death.

Todd: 12:58

Now, just backing up a little bit, Socrates was commanded to kill himself, wasn't he?

Cheryl: 13:02

Yes. Yeah. Well, well, well, he was he went on trial, and his trial his his charge was corrupting the youth of Athens.

Todd: 13:11

Because he was teaching things.

Cheryl: 13:12

Um Well, I will say that there were there's more than one way to corrupt people, and he was probably doing the other one. But he was charged with corrupting the youth of Athens. And he was actually like teaching them to think. Socrates never actually says what he thinks in these dialogues, he just asks questions.

Todd: 13:34

Causes you to think.

Cheryl: 13:36

Right. And causes the guys in the conversation to react to him. And so Socrates was put on trial and he was found guilty. And his his um punishment, he could have left Athens, been in exile, but he instead, yes, he could have exiled himself, but he chose not to, and so because he wanted to stay, he was forced to drink Hemlock to kill himself. And so um his friends were present at his death, a couple of them, and they um have a dialogue about it. And I personally cried when I was reading this account of these men talking about their friend and mentor and his death, and that was another surprise. I am yeah, I'm a crier, I'm gonna admit it, but I didn't expect to cry over a book that's 2,500 years old about a bunch of guys who were thinkers in a city a long time ago. That's when I knew that this project was gonna take a lot out of me and it was gonna give me a lot back.

Todd: 14:33

Yeah, and then starting a podcast talking about it. That's yeah, it's good. Thanks for sharing that with the world. And I've listened to I've listened to some of your episodes. It's good. So yeah.

Cheryl: 14:44

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Todd: 14:46

Very cool.

Cheryl: 14:46

I I think I became, you know, I started the podcast a little bit after I was reading. I had read been reading for several weeks, and I realized I was feeling so strongly about this. I just wanted to share it.

Todd: 14:57

So that was where that's like you're reading stuff and you're like, I gotta talk about this.

unknown: 15:02

Yeah.

Cheryl: 15:04

And my poor husband was tired of it.

Todd: 15:06

I gotta share this with someone. Yeah. So I understand that feeling. Yeah. Let's switch gears a little bit. Now, why do we why do people think the classics are boring or irrelevant? How does that come about?

Cheryl: 15:17

Oh I think there's a lot of reasons. One thing that is underlooked at is that we read these books too early. Many, many of these books are assigned in high schools for some people or college, and that's the one and only time you approach it. And you do not have enough life experience to understand some of these books. And I also think that the when you're asked to read them in a classroom, you're often asked to read them for a result, not not for it to affect your heart.

Todd: 15:51

Yeah, agreed.

Cheryl: 15:53

And and so I think, sadly, that some of the education kind of drills it out of us a little bit. It makes it seem hard. You'd much rather be off playing soccer than reading Aristotle, who wouldn't. And um, but you but you so I think that's part of it. I think another part of it is that sometimes you get a really bad translation. There's lots of bad translations, and and and you can read one, and I have gotten some bad ones that that make whatever you're reading seem impenetrable. And and I that's actually a piece of advice that I give. If you're reading something that's in translation and you hate it, go see if you can find another translation.

Todd: 16:35

Yeah, that'd be good.

Cheryl: 16:36

Because it'll help you. And I also I also think that the world, the world that these people lived in is so foreign that that if you're not willing to just sit with that weirdness a little bit, then it's gonna be a stretch.

Todd: 16:51

Yeah, yeah, I can see that, these negative associations from high school where you're just being forced to read it against your will. So I'd be like painful. And then not not being taught how to approach the story either. Now, there were some teachers I had in high school and college that I'm sitting in a physics class in college, and it was like I had this professor spoke I don't, I don't know, what's the word, extemporaneously, off the cuff. He just spoke for an hour with no notes, and he started at the edge of the universe that the known universe and worked his way back down to earth, and we were just enthralled the entire time. And so at the end he said, and to think, here we are on this small little planet, capable of conscious thought. And we were like, that's great, yes. But he he gave us an approach to physics that made it interesting, and so yeah, I think the teachers can help in that as an aspect as well. Teaching the kids, I think you're right. Yeah, that's beautiful. I feel so jealous. I mean, that was yeah, one teacher, but you know, yeah, but if teachers that love the subject and they want to share their love of it with the students, that's awesome. But you know, a lot of professors and high school teachers, it's like, oh, I'm assigned to teach history or something, whatever the subject is, and I'm gonna do this, and I don't really know it, not really interested in it. And so, yeah, that comes across. So, yeah. I think that's another we reason we don't come away from the classics with that. Oh, yes, that was great. So, yeah.

Cheryl: 18:31

Yeah, I think that teachers don't typically approach things that so as as if it's gonna change your heart.

Todd: 18:37

Yeah.

Cheryl: 18:38

There's very little talk about that. And and that's actually what a lot of these books end up doing if you let them know.

Todd: 18:44

That's true. Yeah, I had so many, I had a I had quite a few teachers coming up, middle school and whatnot, that were they were good and they loved us. And uh my sixth grade teacher, Sue Coleman, in Milledgeville, Georgia, she was that is lovely. She uh Yeah, she instilled a love for learning. So it's such a good lady, and she didn't have to do that, you know. So I'm thankful for her. But yeah, she's passed on, but yeah.

Cheryl: 19:10

I actually, I mean, I did have a a wonderful English teacher who was a grammar and speech teacher, changed my life, but she wasn't big on literature, and so I think that like I do, I I diagram sentences when I'm reading things sometimes to figure them out. And I I always think of Joan Houghton when I do that because she was such a wonderful, wonderful teacher in that way, but she wasn't a lover of literature, which was interesting.

Todd: 19:36

Yeah, just the basics blocking and tackling of English.

Cheryl: 19:40

So I all super important, like it's integral to communication, but your heart doesn't necessarily soar with that.

Todd: 19:48

Yeah, I have a friend named Al. He became a Christian later in life, and uh this guy was from Jersey City, or maybe been New York City, I'm not sure, maybe Brooklyn, I'm not sure. He came from The streets, but he had a degree in literature. And so when he became a Christian, he tackled the Bible from the perspective of English, you know, literature. And he's like analyzing it. And that guy, he was so awesome. Just you know, hey, what about you know he would just analyze yeah, he would analyze the the text and just break it down and stuff, and he could glean the meaning from it. Just yes, that's helpful. So that was that was a surprise. That is really neat. Al, he's a good dude. But um so how do you have any advice now? How can we hit the reset button when we're trying to rediscover these books?

Cheryl: 20:38

I think that you know how we've been talking about the heart. I think the first thing is to expect to have your heart changed. Like don't come into this as like, I'm gonna read this because it's a book and I'm just gonna like get through it. There's something in there that's probably gonna change you. And then the second thing is maybe find a friend who wants to read it with you. Or I hesitate to recommend experts. For me, the experts are always so off-putting because they know so much and they bring so much to the discussion of a book that it can almost overwhelm somebody who's new. Right. Right. And so that actually was one of the reasons I started wanting to talk about these books, is because I wanted to let beginners know that beginners can read these books. So I think finding a friend, choosing wisely what your book is, is is also helpful. Don't read Aristotle's Ethics first. You can read it fifth, but don't read it first. Pick a narrative. Personally, the Odyssey is is the go-to starting point. It's thrilling, it's a great story, there's great characters, and it's like the basis of so much else. My but I will say, my my son, who is a classic scholar, he and I talk about the Odyssey a lot, but he he told me, he said, the problem with Odyssey is that I always wish I were reading the Iliad, which is the prequel to the Odyssey. I haven't read the Iliad, so I wouldn't know. But um, so I think that starting not reading introductions, just like not necessarily going to an listening to an expert talk about this book, especially beforehand. Don't read the introduction. It's gonna bog you down. They're gonna talk about the influences on that author. You don't care, you do not care. I don't care. You just you just want to hear what that author has to say to you. So that's where you start is start with a a story. Start with if you've got a buddy who wants to read it with you, or a friend, or someone who's not an expert. There's nothing wrong with experts. I love them, but I I'm I'm the mother of one, but there's nothing, but you don't necessarily want that when you're starting out. It's easy to feel intimidated by these books, they've lasted a long time. But you don't have to be. And so that's that's where I would start with a narrative, something um approachable. Grab a friend, find some and skip that stupid introduction. You don't need to know it. And if you don't like it, get another translation. I'm big on finding the right translation.

Todd: 23:23

That's good. That's a great idea. Yeah. Now, can you share a story about maybe a listener or friend of yours who rediscovered reading the classics, maybe through your podcast?

Cheryl: 23:32

Actually, yeah, it was one of my neighbors. We I didn't know he was listening to my podcast. And yeah, I know. It's funny. And um, it's funny, we're friends, we're neighbors. We live here in South Carolina, but we all went my he and my husband and I all went to Georgia Tech right around the same time. So we have very similar, I know. I heard these yellow jackets all in the same cold school.

Todd: 23:54

Georgia Tech's a great school because we had people that came from transfers from Georgia Tech, and they were talking about how much harder it was. Anyways, don't want to start any trouble with interstate.

Cheryl: 24:04

I didn't know that.

Todd: 24:04

Yeah, it was yeah, but um oh, I had no idea.

Cheryl: 24:08

But it's good to know. Well, but I was talking to Matt the other day. We were out walking our dogs, ran across each other, and he said, Oh, hey, I picked up the Odyssey because I was listening to your podcast the other day, and you're right, it's so good. And we and I was so flattered by that. Um, and actually it gave me personally a lot of encouragement. But he was um really engaged. Yeah. I mean, and he was so engaged with the um the idea of like, yeah, I you know what you I never really thought about reading that, but you made it sound really interesting. And I was, oh, that was awesome. But um, and just so nice and encouraging to know that that yeah, other people are picking that book up and reading.

Todd: 24:51

Yeah, and that that would be another recommendation for me that I would throw in listen to your podcast because you know, you're going it's like you're kind of plucking the fruit and saying, here's how you can consume it. So that's helpful.

unknown: 25:03

Yeah.

Cheryl: 25:04

Yeah. You know, actually sometimes on my if you don't mind me saying this, um sometimes on my podcast, I will be flat out like, guys, this one was not worth it.

Todd: 25:12

That's good. Like spoiler alert.

Cheryl: 25:15

Uh yeah.

unknown: 25:16

That's good.

Cheryl: 25:17

And also, like, maybe some people need to read this, but not everybody needs to read it. So I'm very honest.

Todd: 25:24

And so that means you don't need to feel guilty for not getting it or not wanting to read that. If it's not resonating, move on. So yeah, just drop it.

Cheryl: 25:32

Every yeah, life is very short when you start looking at all the wonderful books there are to read in the world. It's it's almost terrifying. And yeah, there's no time to read a book that like there's reasons to read hard books sometimes, but there's no reason to read a book that you're just like, no, just put it down, don't feel bad.

Todd: 25:49

But what you know, uh as you're learning these things and you're expanding your horizons, it's like then you start hearing music that's referencing this content. You're like, that's where that came from. So yeah. Right. Nephistopheles and things like you know, to hear those names in the music and go, ah, okay. I know what he's talking about.

Cheryl: 26:09

Well, one of the things that's really funny is, you know, Shakespeare, he wrote in so many cliches, whatever. No, actually, he wrote all those cliches, he made all those cliches possible. Um, I had only read two Shakespeare plays until this year. And I this reading plan had nine plays in three weeks. Which drama is actually super fun to read. And so if you're thinking about picking something up, a narrative, drama, drama's a good one because it's not very long. Because people can only plant themselves in a seat for two hours, right? So that's just not a long story. So I was reading Shakespeare and I was just laughing at myself at like how many th lines I knew from this these plays because everyone says them. And I would read, I didn't know that came from Shakespeare. I didn't know that was for it, it was just over and over again.

Todd: 26:57

It was really funny. Yeah, and then there's that danger when people don't know these things and where they came from, they don't understand the relevance to our history. Right. And and then they start wanting to tear things down, and it's like, wait a minute, hang on. This is where that came from, and here's why it's here. And uh, yeah, it it adds a lot of depth and it keeps us from basically tearing down our own good things.

Cheryl: 27:22

So oh I I agree. What's interesting is so this is a this reading list I'm doing is chronological, roughly. And so I several weeks ago crossed the divide from pre-Enlightenment medieval mindset and thought to enlightenment to post-Enlightenment, and it has been jarring because what happens is that people start throwing over everything because we're just gonna start again. And um, Nietzsche in particular is on this reading list, and we I read that, and he is just wanting to, he says what Plato did was terrible and just throw it all out. So, you know, you know, honestly, it's funny to hear people saying, Well, we should just get rid of all of this stuff because I'm like, ah, Nietzsche, yeah, I know burn it down.

Todd: 28:17

That's yeah. You don't you don't even know that's Nietzsche and it's right, and they have no idea that they're just repeating, yeah.

Cheryl: 28:22

Right. Yeah.

Todd: 28:23

So yeah, knowing where it came from, that's that's so helpful.

Cheryl: 28:27

It's been very eye-opening, this whole um in in that regard, like where these were certain pernicious ideas, especially reading across the um divide over the enlightenment. I had no idea that it was as monumental as it was Shakespeare's pre-Enlightenment. Rousseau is is immediately at at the Enlightenment, and he's utterly different. Utterly. Nice. So it was sh like shocking. I almost wanted to go climb back in my Shakespeare hole and keep reading Shakespeare because it was so ugly. In Rousseau, I didn't like it at all.

Todd: 29:05

Yeah. So I mean that leads to the subject of classics being a framework for self-improvement. So I read I read somewhere, I don't know where, but I read somewhere that classics are a self-help before it self-help even existed. Now, what are your thoughts on that?

Cheryl: 29:21

I think that's right if you're open to it. You know, Marcus Aurelius is a really easy one to point to with the meditations. Um, and Epictetus, who is another stoic, they're really easy to point to for things like that. Actually, I had something really funny happen to me as a result of reading the Stoics. Do you mind if I like share it? Because it is so funny. It's Epictetus who said that children play at things, and one day they play at being a baker, and one day they play at being a soldier. But that's what children do. Adults don't do that, they do one thing and they do it all the way. You are not a child. Quit dabbling, basically, is what he said. That's cool.

Todd: 30:08

I like that.

Cheryl: 30:10

Okay. So I had to take his advice because I um I had to do something, I had to ask something of an acquaintance. And I was very uneasy about doing that. I'm not really good at asking for things. I was very uneasy about doing it. And I had been putting it off for almost a month. I had told myself by the end of May, I'm gonna do this. And it was like May 28th. And I read, I read Epictetus, and it's almost like he's shaking his finger at me. You're not a child. Quit acting like it. That's good. You know, put your big, put your big bowie pants on and go do this thing. And I did, and it was like it ended up being very positive. I had a it had a lot of knock-on good things that happened afterwards. And it was just, it was one of those things where I I wouldn't have just said, okay, I'm doing it, if I hadn't read that. And that's like such a funny, like 2,000-year-old self-help book thing, but it it was great. Transcending. I'm not sure that. Yeah, and I don't, I don't know that like I I should look up at my my book. Mel Robbins wouldn't have told me to quit acting like a child, you know. You know, somebody who's who writes self-help books, you know, she wouldn't have said, children play at things. You're not a child. I don't think she would have said it like that, and I needed to hear it that clearly.

Todd: 31:25

By the way, yeah, I I've I've recently listened to Mel Robbins' recent book. What is it, uh, Let Them Theory?

Cheryl: 31:30

Let them, yeah.

Todd: 31:31

That was a good book. Yeah. Is it? Oh, that's good to hear. That was really good. So yeah. Now, was there a moment where maybe a line or a passage changed how you saw yourself?

Cheryl: 31:43

Yes. This is you know, I said earlier that Aristotle is not a good place to start. However, I think every single high schooler needs to read part of Nicomachean ethic. And you specifically need to read the part about friendship. Aristotle talks about the kinds of friendship. It's so concrete. And he talks about, you know, you are in your life going to have friends of circum. I I don't have all the terminology exactly right, but you're gonna have friends of circumstance and friends of location, and you're going to have true friends. And you're gonna have, you know, you're gonna, you know how like in your life you have work friends, and then you leave that job and you still like those people, but you're not friends anymore. You just kind of, yeah, you just drift apart. And so being a relatively new empty nester, when I read this about friendship, my kids were in sports, and in particular, one of my one of my kids ran cross-country, and I loved those parents. We were we had so much fun together. But when Jack quit running when he graduated, we all just we lost touch. And it made me so sad. And I realized when I was reading Aristotle that that's okay. Those were friends, it didn't make them not friends, it just made them friends of a certain kind. And that's okay because deep lifelong friends are very rare, according to Aristotle and according to my own experience. And I always felt bad about losing those other friendships. I felt kind of like, oh, something wrong with me. Right. And Aristotle laid it all out there, and I think that that's something that if I had known as an 18-year-old rather than as a 57-year-old, that I think that my life would have been materially improved by that. But it also even now made my made me feel like no, those that was a that was a good, sweet time then, and that's okay. It's not here anymore. And it doesn't mean you guys didn't like each other. It's just um that's not now. Yeah.

Todd: 33:54

Was it Mel Robbins that talks about friends for a a reason, season, or a lifetime?

Cheryl: 33:59

Oh, was that I think she might have too. It's funny. I don't listen to her that much right now because I'm trying to read. But yeah, I think she probably talked about that too, but it it was Aristotle who did it first. Right, that's where she got it from then. Um, it is. And when I read that, and actually, and I and I have a very dear friend who we talked as a result of that that passage, and um, it was a really good conversation. That's cool.

Todd: 34:28

Yeah, now you've alluded to this, but um, how's this project changed you? I mean, not we're not talking about just book learning, but and you've alluded to a heart change. How has your heart changed?

Cheryl: 34:40

Oh, the world has gotten so much bigger. So much bigger. I don't see things as isolated as much anymore. There's threads connecting everything, like threads everywhere, and you just need only try to pick one up and see where it leads. But even little little things like little scenes in um I just uh I read a Goethe book, and he has a scene in there that's just like pivotal, and it's directly out of Dante. And I was like, Oh, oh, I know what this scene is, I know what's gonna happen, it's not gonna be good. And um it's not just the literature though, it's like watching life and knowing that oh, there it's big, the world is big, and the world is strange. So I think that's kind of a spacey answer for you, but it's good. Um I uh I'm so glad though. It's made me very excited to like, for instance, we're taking a vacation next year, we're going to Yorkshire, and I've got a couple of books laid out to read, and one of them I would have never even known about. It's called it's by a man named the um Venerable Bede. And he wrote in 800 a history of England in 800. And so I'm gonna read that, and it's gonna be fine. It's gonna be really interesting, and I would have never even thought about reading that book. I would have just gone to England and wondered, huh? I wonder what happened before King Henry IV or whatever, you know. I would have I would have like gotten to the tutors and not gone further back, but this I'm engaging all of it rather than some of it. Cool.

Todd: 36:22

Now let's talk about applying this old wisdom to modern life. So what are the what are three books that you've read this year that you you think everybody needs to read them?

Cheryl: 36:34

Said it already, one. The Odyssey. Homer. It's so foundational. The story, the longing. The the thing that was surprising to me was that it starts off not with an a man coming home, it starts with a boy who's never known his father who decides to go find him. And I think that is I I read that last year and thought, how can an English teacher not make this relatable to every single kid in that classroom? Because Telemachus is them, right? He's just like them. So not to hit on English teachers anymore. Sorry about that. Um, anyway, the Odyssey, foundational. Second, I think any English speaker needs to read Shakespeare.

Todd: 37:25

Yeah.

Cheryl: 37:25

You need to read it. And personally, right now, my recommendation is Hamlet. It's a great story. It's ooh, oh it's so good. And there's a here's what you should do. Read, watch the movie first and then read it.

Todd: 37:40

Okay, that's cool.

Cheryl: 37:41

Totally not cheating. It's 100% not cheating. It's cool. It's not, don't feel bad. Watch the movie first. There's a great one with Mel Gibson and Helena Bonham Carter. Fabulous. Hamlet. That's cool. And then the third one until last week, I probably would have said something different. But I'm a mere I'm an American. I live in the South. I'm by heritage a southerner as well. And the book I read last week was a narrative of the life of Frederick Douglass, an American slave. I'm not embarrassed or anything that I haven't read a lot of these books, but I am truly ashamed that I have never read that book before. It it it everyone should read it. Everyone. I mean, yeah, maybe you should read it in high school, but everyone should should read it. Um, written in 1845 before emancipation, before the Civil War. It really struck me that that's just a necessary book to read. That's cool. It was really amazing.

Todd: 38:43

Yeah, these books change your life.

Cheryl: 38:46

They do. And I, you know, honestly, that one, I haven't talked about it on the podcast yet, just read it. It is so inspiring to understand what a man who was born at the lowest possible level in society, the generosity that he's capable of, even in that condition, and the kindness and the hope that he kept having is amazing. I mean that's deep. Yeah, yeah, you have to read it.

Todd: 39:19

I love that. Yeah, yeah.

Cheryl: 39:21

It's very, very good and and harrowing.

Todd: 39:24

That's cool. Yeah. So now there you go. Somebody's starting to read maybe the if they're starting this week, what's step one? What what do you recommend they do?

Cheryl: 39:34

Just get a book. Get a book that's a narrative, but do not read the introduction. Skip ahead. If it's got a map in it, flag it. If it's got a cast of characters in it, flag it. The Odyssey does have both of those things. It's really helpful. And just start. I I I said okay earlier, it's okay to read the movie to watch the movie or whatever, and that's fine. But don't get bogged down. There are lots and lots of people who love close reading and slow reading, but there is a place for fast reading. Don't get bogged down. If you don't know who somebody is, circle it and keep moving. Just just go because you are gonna get a lot out of it, even if you don't know all the background on all the characters. It's fine. Just go. Don't be afraid.

Todd: 40:23

Yeah, that's a nice approach.

Cheryl: 40:26

It's pretty simple, but it it sounds almost ignorant, almost so so simple, it sounds like it couldn't work, but I think it does. It's worked very much.

Todd: 40:35

I think that resonates because it's like we if we're thinking of starting an endeavor, a lot of times we just get a paralysis by analysis, and we're like, okay, I've got to do this, this, this, and this before I pick this up. And that's with working out, that's with anything. But don't do that. Just keep moving. And then you may miss a lot in your initial readings and then go back and read some more, you know. It's yeah, just move.

Cheryl: 41:01

I mean, honestly, I can't I can't wait to go back and reread the Odyssey and see what I missed because like I got so much out of it that that is fine. I'm gonna read it again. I'll talk about it with my son, and I'm gonna find more stuff. But that's another beauty of these books is they tend to lend themselves to mining and to rereading and to hitting you differently um the first time than the second time or the third time. There's there's there's riches in there that will handle your reread. Nice.

Todd: 41:34

And a lot of people don't finish the book and they feel or maybe they feel guilty for not getting it. So what do you say to those folks? Maybe some encouraging words to help them.

Cheryl: 41:45

So I will tell you when I read Ethics, um, the Aristotle, I didn't get it. Like I was having a very hard time. What I did was I that's when I I didn't go and read the introduction. I went and saw what I could get for help. And and actually, there was a Hillsdale course on the Nicomachian ethic. And that's what I that's what I used. And I thought, okay, I'm just gonna watch a section and then I'm gonna read it. And I'm gonna watch a section and then I'm gonna read it. And it they got me through it. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with that. Don't feel guilty. You haven't done less. It is still gonna hit your heart. You're gonna get it. And and uh I did actually discover that I had a terrible translation, that's why I harp on translations.

Todd: 42:30

That's cool.

Cheryl: 42:30

Because um, that one was bad. Another thing that uh you can do is there are commentaries on different kinds of books that I've found to be helpful. Um, and there's nothing wrong with grabbing one and and looking at it a little bit. There's just like get your help. It's okay. And if you don't like it, put it down.

Todd: 42:50

It's fine. Yeah, one thing I like to do is use AI to say to help me understand things because all of this stuff is captured out there on the internet, and I these large language models are mining the data. And and if you have questions, I mean you need to spend that time reading. So there's no getting around it. You need to spend time marinating in it, thinking about it. Yes, that's how it changes you. But sometimes you got to go, uh, I'm not getting this part. And I like using AI to go back and ask things about books and stuff. Basically, you're these large language models are taking advantage of the big minds out there that have already mined the data for you, and it they can help you better understand what you're reading. So just to bring it into the modern context, that's what I do oftentimes.

Cheryl: 43:35

So yeah, I I made a commitment to myself before I started this project that I wouldn't use AI before I read the book. Yep. I, you know, I just said I'm I'm not gonna do that. Another I one thing I didn't mention was note-taking. Like I've gotten to be a really good note taker and I can't believe I totally forgot about saying anything about it. One thing you can do, I got this from like uh somebody teaching one of those courses that I looked at. For example, in a Shakespeare play, if you will write like a one or two sentence summary of the scene, I got my little note cards here that have all my little notes on them. And if you'll just make a like a one or two sent one or two-line summary of every scene, you get done with that book. You have your own in your own words summary of that play. And if you're trying to think of like, oh, who said that? You can look at your summary and you're gonna be able to find where it, you know, where what you're looking for is very quickly. I do that now for almost every book. I did that for Dante for the Divine Comedy. So it's a hundred cantos, and I have a summary that's a hundred lines long of the divine comedy that I wrote for myself because I just wrote a summary of what happened after each canto. That's a really good thing. Writing in your book, using maps is so helpful, but engage yourself with that text in a physical way, if you can. That's also very helpful.

Todd: 45:10

Yes. I mean, we've we've talked on previous episodes about journaling and the value in self-improvement there. And so what I'm reading, when I'm reading for, I'm mostly reading things that are for self-improvement, finances and all kinds of things, but I have journal prompts for every day. I have a morning and an evening, and I have in there, what did you learn today? And so throughout my day, I will write something down. If it's something significant that happens, I write it down so that I can reflect on it at night. And when I'm reading books and things, I take notes on the books. I write down the nuggets that I'm gleaning because you don't, it doesn't really embed itself into you who you are until you sit and marinate in it. That's why I I I cautiously mentioned using AI because you can't there's no hack. And that's the problem with modern society, oftentimes, is we say, you know, hey, here's a way you can do this in 30 days, or you know, yeah, there's no hacks. You can't just hack your way through life. Sometimes you got to sit and meditate on things and let them really and become part of who you are. You have to do that with journaling, you have to reflect on things, think about what does it mean to you? And you have to keep revisiting it because I don't get things the first time through. And uh me neither. And you know, I'm you know, open transparency here. I, you know, have worked with a counselor, guys a PhD, and he's you know, he's teaching me things, he's helping me to improve myself. And uh he's been telling me things all along, and they don't register. I I use I say the the the things pool on my brain and and wash off, they don't sink in. And so we he just keeps revisiting them with me, and then eventually I go, ah, yes, okay. Oh, yeah. The only way that happens is if you journal on things and you spend time meditating, just thinking about how does this apply to me. And so I think it's the same with the classic works, you have to read them, and you shouldn't feel guilty about not getting things, or if you drop if you just put the book away and you stop reading, that's okay. It's not about finishing the book, it's about just getting those nuggets of wisdom that speak to where you are today. And then as you go, as you go back and revisit, you learn more. So yeah, just keep revisiting these things. So yeah.

Cheryl: 47:32

Yeah. Yeah, I I hadn't thought about like I think that I do think there's something about the physicality though. That was an that was one thing when I started this project. I said, I'm going to read physical books to the extent possible. And I've read two Kindle books and that's it. And everything else has been hard copy. And I do think it has made a difference in my comprehension and my retention. That's cool. Because um, I think I have a very spatially oriented memory where I can remember where on a page something was and like how where where it felt like I was in the book, you know. So I I do think that there's something about that physicality of writing and outlining or highlighting and arguing with the author in the margin, whatever you do.

Todd: 48:15

I love it.

Cheryl: 48:16

Yeah, I mean, not that I would do that.

Todd: 48:17

The brain doesn't just exist in our heads, the nerve endings go all the way through our body. So tactile touch, writing things down, that's also embedding it in your mind and your heart. So yeah, that's the the the sensitive parts there that yeah, physical touch, yeah, that really does it. So wow. This has been uh really good chat, Cheryl. I appreciate your time. So I loved it.

Cheryl: 48:40

Thank you so much.

Todd: 48:41

So um, for the listeners here, just a reminder, most of our audience are men, and so I thought it was important to bring this to the forefront because and especially talking about men are interested in stuff like action movies and getting out there and you know, physical stuff. And but if you really want to improve as a human being, you have to start in your mind. And uh, so I encourage people to just get out there and read. Read the classics, you know, approach things from the perspective that it's gonna change who you are. And that really, that really does help you get more interested in these subjects. So, and uh, Cheryl, thank you again for your time today. And uh thank you so much. Where can people find your your Substack?

Cheryl: 49:28

So, my Substack is my name, Cheryl Drury. Um, or you can look up on Substack, Crack the Book is the name of my podcast and my Substack.

Todd: 49:38

So Crack the Book Podcast. Yep, and I'll put links in the description here for the listen. Thank you. And uh that's the best place. This has been wonderful. So thank you so much for your time.

Cheryl: 49:47

Um I've really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.

Todd: 49:50

So, folks, if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a review, share it with your friends, and until next time, we'll see you on the path.