Retirement Can Quietly Break Men

Todd 0:00

This is the cluttered path, a compass for midlife.

Speaker 3 0:03

The path is long, the mouth is bored. A little cluttered since you were bored. The middle chapters feel unclear. Don't worry, friend, no need to fear.

Todd 0:14

A lot of men don't really enjoy retirement. They lose themselves in it. You'd think retirement is the reward for working your whole life, but a lot of men quietly fall apart when they get there. It's not because they run out of money, it's because nobody teaches them how to let go of being needed. So the real question is this: when it's your turn, will you be ready? Today we're talking to Michael Kay about what it takes for men to let go of their work life as they transition into retirement. Michael, welcome to the show.

Michael Kay 0:45

Thanks so much, Todd. It's uh it's it's an honor and a joy to be here.

Todd 0:49

Yeah, thanks so much for joining us, man. It's uh this topic is huge because there are a lot of guys out there, I've seen it with so many men, just unable to just unplug and transition over into retirement. So I saw your I saw you out there, I read your story, and I thought, man, I just love to talk to this guy. So yeah, thanks so much, man.

Michael Kay 1:09

Yeah, that's great. Thanks. Yeah.

Todd 1:11

So

Meet Michael Kay And Chapter X

Todd 1:12

for the audience, let me start with a quick intro. I'll read a quick bio on Michael, and then we'll just get right into his story. Okay. So Michael Kay was a licensed, certified public accountant who then built a fee-only registered investment advisory firm. Now, he eventually transitioned into financial life planning, and that pretty much just changed his life, his business, and his relationship with clients. And over the course of his career, he's written two books on financial life planning, and he's done countless articles for business publications. He's also a public speaker, and he's addressed a lot of professional and consumer audiences. And then finally, he helps men transition into meaningful lives after their careers are over. Now, that's a brief intro, and we're going to dig into Michael's story. So, right into the questions, Michael. Now, you spent decades building your business. How did you come to realize that you can't keep doing it forever?

Michael Kay 2:12

I certainly could have continued, uh, but what I came to realize is that the things that I wanted that were important to me, uh, I'd accomplished. And so I I felt like I'd climbed the mountain as high as I wanted it to go. And it was time to kind of turn over the reins to the next generation, which was I had uh I had a younger partner who was who i who is brilliant, and uh we were certainly in alignment with our thinking and philosophy, and certainly he was able, and I said, okay, well, now I can, you know, kind of check the box and say, okay, what's next for me? So it was, could I have continued doing it? Sure. But I I I I felt like I had done everything I really needed to do. So it was like, what's the next hill to climb?

Todd 3:06

Now, how was can you tell that story about how you transitioned into retirement?

The Hidden Grief After Work Ends

Todd 3:11

It was not not an easy path, was it?

Michael Kay 3:14

Well, you know, it started off really easy. And to be honest, I mean, I I had worked really diligently to make sure that I was checking off all the boxes. So, for example, you know, I knew that my financial life was was fine. Uh, I had spent a good amount of time to think about what are the things in my that would be interesting, fun, what are the the what are the what's the container that I that was uh appropriate for me? Um what were the key things that I needed to be aware of? And a lot of it was certainly in alignment with the work that I was doing as a financial life planner, talking about, you know, what are some of the aspects of life, like, you know, beast other than money is, you know, our intellectual pursuits, our health, family, spiritual life, uh, community, social engagement, things like that. And uh, and so I felt like I had really spent a lot of time thinking about other things. What I did find was that about almost six months into retirement, I hit the wall. And I went, I became really, I guess depressed is the right word for it. Uh, and I didn't know why, and I and I didn't uh I really didn't understand what was going on. I just knew that it was not a good place. And I really started to, and I continued to write about it. When I, as I was um kind of back up half a step, as I was creating my next step, I had created this community for men transitioning to life after career called Chapter X. And I was writing uh blog pieces at that time. I was writing them, I think, five days a week and doing a monthly Zoom meeting. And um and and I think I had just started the podcast. And I started to write. And when I went into this depression, I I wrote about it, how I was feeling. And I shared that with the community. And I got back a lot of really good support. And uh I spoke to my my wife, my you know, my family, uh, I spoke with a therapist about it. And what I came to realize after just spending some time in contemplation, because that's one of the things we don't do a lot, we don't do a really good job of being good contemplators because we're always doing, we're doing machines. My life in terms of being productive, being uh an achievement achieving, started when I was 12 years old. Literally started working when I was 12 and never stopped. There wasn't a gap year in college, there wasn't a spring break, there wasn't a uh if I changed jobs in the accounting profession, there wasn't um taking two weeks off between uh or traveling the world or whatever. I none of that. I just worked, put my head down, whatever I needed to do to make a living, to support my family, to uh build my businesses. That's all I did. And what I didn't realize is I never didn't grieve it. I didn't mourn it, I didn't acknowledge it, that this huge gap in my life from age 12 to age 68 was this nonstop achieve, achieve, achieve, achieve, achieve, achieve, achieve. And once I recognized that and realized what it was that I hadn't taken the time to think about and be with, uh, once I was able to do that, uh the the page turned and I was able to really focus on the joy.

Todd 6:54

That's man, that's deep. And it's so true because incidentally, I started working when I was 12 as well. I I I grew up in a small town in Georgia and I worked at this small bait and tackle shop near my house. And uh it was a tough job, man. We worked uh we worked pretty long hours on the weekends, and uh, so I just have not stopped working since that time. So I relate to this because I realized that at some point I'm gonna have to let go and turn that page like you're talking about. So that's why, you know, hearing your story, huge, I'm hugely interested in that. So it's very necessary. But um

From Busy To Structured Days

Todd 7:32

we kind of look at at retirement as freedom. But what things what things got harder for you after you handed things over? I think you've already alluded to those, but can you name like one or two things that were the absolute hardest things when you handed things over?

Michael Kay 7:48

Going from a structured day to completely unstructured was a little mind-boggling. Okay, that was one thing. Uh, was that okay, now I'm, you know, I knew before I before I handed over the keys, I knew what I was doing basically from the minute I got up in the morning to the time that I went to bed at night. Uh, I knew what work I needed to do, who I needed to talk to, which of my colleagues I needed to sit with, what clients I had to speak with or meet with. Uh I knew what I was gonna. Now, in, you know, when you when you no longer have that responsibility or that part of your life, then the thinking is is okay, well, do I just wake up when I want to wake up? And am I gonna sleep till noon? Um I I don't think I've ever I've slept till noon since I was in high school. Um but um you know, it's like what is my how do I build a structure? Because we do need structure, right? Everyone, you know, you uh I have I have three granddaughters, and and uh, you know, it's like they need a structure in their life. Otherwise, they're completely, you know, you know, it's all all bets are off. So it's like we need a structure in our life as well. We need to know that, okay, well, when am I exercising? When am I doing uh, you know, the the different aspects of the things that I do now, which are really varied? Whether I'm you know doing a podcast, whether I'm doing some writing, uh, some blog pieces for Chapter X, uh the part of my life that encompasses music or volunteering or some of the other things that I do, how does that fit in my life? And how do I know? Like, I don't need to be busy from eight in the morning till eight at night. I don't want to be busy from eight in the morning to eight at night. I want to be able to adjust and expand and contract as my energy dictates and as as I'm as I'm feeling what I need to do. Uh, I don't want to feel that I am, uh, if I have a high energy day, great, I am on fire. If I have a low energy day, I'm gonna honor that and not say, okay, well, I need to go, you'll excuse the expression, balls to the wall and exhaust myself for what reason? Uh so it it there's gotta be a level of common sense involved in in how you structure yourself. So that I think that was one of the big things is to just uh create that structure. The other thing is, is what are the boundaries for our decision making?

Joyful Boundaries And Your Health Runway

Michael Kay 10:31

And I really admit that I am the ultimate, you know, at least in my work career, I was the ultimate yes, yes man. If if some if my my my wife, my kids, uh, my colleagues, my partner, my clients, my friend, if they wanted something, the answer was yes. I will do what I need to do to get it done for you. And it really, and that was it. It was yes. I hated saying no. But what I learned I needed to do in in this stage of my life was to say no to certain things and certain relationships that weren't bringing me joy. And joy became the uh really one of the watchwords for my life in in this chapter. If it's not joyful, I'm not doing it. Uh if it's if it doesn't bring me that level of joy that I'm doing, that of what I'm doing, or the people that I'm spending time with, I'm not gonna spend time with people who suck the life out of me. I don't care whether I did for the last 40 years of my life and dealt with it, I'm not doing it anymore. It the the cost is too high. And the realization, Todd, that we we don't know how long we have uh to go in our runway. Our runway isn't it is not is not necessarily very long. It could be, but how much of how much of a healthy life do we have where we can uh do the things that we want to do and that are important to us? And as I've spoken to so many men, the biggest challenge, you know, one of the biggest challenges is hell is health. Once that turns, you know, all bets are off.

Todd 12:23

Yeah. Once you have a health problem, you only have one problem in life.

Michael Kay 12:27

Yeah, for for absolutely. And and so all the things that you've thought about, wanted to do, excited about, it's all gone.

Todd 12:36

That's out the door.

Michael Kay 12:37

Right. So it's just like, okay, well, how do I curate a life that's based on staying healthy as long as I can, living as joyfully as I can, living within the boundaries of yes and no, uh and a structure that that um that supports me in the things that are interesting to me and meaningful. Right. But yeah.

Todd 13:02

That's a big that's a big turn for men, especially. But just in general, working professionals, we don't think in terms of, does this bring me joy? We're thinking, I gotta get this done, I'm making money, I've got to do this, I've got to close this deal, I've got to do that. And you're all it's all focused on goals and hitting your marks, hitting that number for retirement and things like that.

Michael Kay 13:24

But right one of the one of the guests I had on my podcast, he talked about the four PRs, uh procreate, produce, provide, and protect. Okay, so if we think about that in terms of our life in our life, you know, providing for our family, we're protecting our family, we're producing, we're doing all these things. And what happens when that changes? What's our what's our reason to go forward? We're gonna have no one to we don't need to protect anyone. We've already procreated, produced, provided, and protected. Now what? So it's a whole different thing that we need to kind of re-jigger in our thinking and kind of reconfigure so that we are uh looking at things through the right lens.

Men Need Help And Safe Spaces

Todd 14:12

Yes. Now excuse me. Side note, how or a side question, how did uh therapy help in this? Was the therapist key in helping you find okay, you need to stop focusing on work and mission and this and that, but and just think about joy. Was the therapist involved in that or no?

Michael Kay 14:29

Not really. Not really. The therapist really came into play when I started to, you know, when I kind of hit that wall.

Todd 14:36

Yeah.

Michael Kay 14:37

But um I had, you know, I had spent as a as a as a financial life planner, so many of our questions with our clients was beyond money. Money was, you know, obviously was a center point, but everything that comes around it is like, why, why are you working? What's the reason? What are your values? What do you care about? What are you willing to do to live your values? Yes. That's deep. That's deep. Yes. And, you know, you know, people are like, what am I retiring to instead of what am I retiring from? Uh, what's my reason to get up in the morning? Is it strong enough? You know, what are the who are the people that I love and I care about that I'm willing to, you know, go through the trials and tribulations of owning a business or, you know, getting to the top of the pile, or, you know, working as a in whatever occupation or job that you're in, that you are this focused on and this this becomes such a big part of our life. This is how we spend the vast number of hours of our life that I'm willing to sacrifice all those things for success or the for the people we care about or the things that we care about. So while I I believe very strongly that when uh when things are muddled, you need to be able to help uh you need the help of someone to help you find clarity. Yes. Right? One and a percent. And and and and and a good therapist has the the uh ability to kind of push the the the smoke away so that you could see what am I really, what am what what do I need to focus on? So you know, no therapist is gonna say, oh, here's your answer. They're gonna ask you questions that make you have to think and and go deep. Um so I'm I'm a big fan, and and I've I've worked with therapists in various stages of my life when I felt I couldn't see through the fog. So I'm I am I am definitely an advocate. Same.

Todd 16:39

And that's another thing with men. And I I did it, I had an episode, I had a psychotherapist on. Uh his name is Steve McCready. And just digging into that because as men, we don't want to ask for help and we don't want to go seek out counseling from someone else.

Michael Kay 16:54

Well, listen, men, men don't even want to thank God for for GPS systems. Men would never want to ask for directions. So but once you have GPS or Waze or whatever in your car, you don't have to ask for directions anymore. So it's the same thing. It's like that feeling of, well, I'm less than if I have to ask for help.

Todd 17:12

And it's not true. It's still not true. We need that. And I didn't realize and I'm ashamed because I didn't realize this until you know 2017 about therapy. And I, you know, okay, I think I'm let me go, let me go check this out. And pulling back the covers on this and looking, and oh, it's not what I thought it was. You know, men think that it's oh, you're just sitting down expressing your feelings to someone. That's part of it, but it's like, no. They're digging into your mind, why we think the way we do, and then helping us make sense of things. So that's uh anyways.

Michael Kay 17:46

Yeah, and and and and and I think one of the things that we don't that we come to battle with is that you know, we're we're we're we're taught we're supposed to be the you know, the strong, silent, you know, holding everything inside, and we can figure out the answer, we're strong, we don't need anyone. And what you're gonna find in uh retirement is that boy, is that a mistake? Yeah. Okay, maybe one of the biggest mistakes because the statistics are clear as bell. Depression and suicide rates for older men is through the roof.

Todd 18:28

Yeah.

Michael Kay 18:28

And a lot of it is because they don't have a solid, meaningful social structure.

Todd 18:34

Yes. Okay. Right?

Michael Kay 18:37

They don't have someone who is their best friend. You know, it's like it's like yeah, if you ever if you ever have a conversation with a bunch of guys, okay, it's either gonna talk about sports or it's gonna talk about the kids, or it's gonna talk, but they're not talking about what's really down deep the the issues. Uh when I do my monthly Zoom meetings for Chapter X, uh, I have a rule. You know, I've I have three rules. No sports, no politics, and I don't care what you're drinking. So we're we're only here to talk about what's what's going on in your life. Yeah. And we've had men share about um, we had one gentleman who talked about his wife was ill. Uh he wanted to, he was supposed to go to some meeting. She said, please, you know, go, it's no problem. He came back and she was going into some kind of anaphylactic shock, and she could have died. She was, you know, they had to rush her to the hospital. And he had these, and he shared with the group his feelings of guilt, his feelings of remorse, his feelings that what would have happened if he didn't get home in time, or what happened what would happen if if she died. Yeah. And the room of of men who are from all over the country just sat there really leaning into the conversation, listening, supporting, and things like that. And that that's why I don't invite women into it because I think that changes the dynamic uh is that for men to realize that you know you can be in a safe space and speak your heart. So, you know, with some one guy who's, you know, who's dealing with some prostate cancer or some other health issues, and his he's afraid and he's able to share it. And you know what? Being supported by other people is really helpful.

Todd 20:25

Yes. Yes, I've seen it. And that's I've said it multiple times in other episodes, but that's one of the things I took away from the military is we leaned on each other. And when you're deployed forward, you're in not so fun places. If you're not talking to each other and sharing the feelings and what you're going through, you can easily lose it and have mental health issues. So I'll just leave it at that.

Michael Kay 20:50

But uh, we need the attitude that we're all in this together. Yeah. While while we're we're we might all be exploring different avenues and we might have different interests and we might be doing different things. We're all sharing this stage of life together. Yes. And if we can do it, if we could do it uh joyfully and and and in support of each other, uh, not that we have to have answers for anyone. That's the difference. Yes, you know, it's like I'm not here to fix anybody, right? I'm not gonna fix anyone, but I'm I can be here and listen and say, wow, that must be really tough. Or gee, I'm really sorry you you went through that. How are you doing now? Yeah. Um, and that's enough. Right. But but men have this belief that, you know, if if someone poses a problem, we have to pose a solution. Right. And and that's that is an absolute the wrong way to look at things for in terms of creating relationships.

Todd 21:54

Yeah. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. And oftentimes just the act of talking about it, voicing that. You're you're really just processing the thoughts and the emotions. That is enough many times. Yes.

Michael Kay 22:06

As long as there's someone there to listen and to really help someone feel heard. Yes.

Todd 22:11

And having for men, having a group of guys that you lean on and you can share those things with super important. And that's what veteran communities, that's after people get out of the military, that's what they're seeking out. And so that's what these veteran communities provide. So every man needs a group of men that you can lean on. So so necessary. So important. Yeah. So we've kind of chased a rabbit. So I'll uh I appreciate you digging into that with us. So yeah.

Who Am I Without My Title

Todd 22:41

Now taking your story and applying it generally to most men, let's talk about why we struggle with retiring. So can you talk about that identity crisis we men face after retiring?

Michael Kay 22:53

Yeah, that that big question. Who am I when I'm no longer my job? Who am I when I'm no longer my title? And you know, we've spent a lifetime being our job, being our title. We knew who we were, we knew what we were doing, we knew why we were doing it. And when that swept away, we are now left with this vacuum. And you know, I'll I I pose the question who were you before? Right? And what it comes down to for so many is like, well, I was curious, I was a learner, I had a maybe I had a family or people that I cared about. I, you know, I I I was I had lots of things or lots of I was I was in a many, many different places uh in my development of you know who I was. But when we're no longer that, we become something else. You know, I remember it's I know this is a super silly story, but I I remember when I was in elementary school, and the one thing I wanted to be was I wanted to be named as uh the student, one of the student crossing guards. Like that was like to get that little like that little thing that you wear, and the thing. Like I thought that was the coolest thing of all time. Well, I got that. And when I went on to the seventh grade to middle school or junior high school, um, I was no longer that. But my identity with that badge and that strap and whatever that silly thing was, was that was my identity. But then that was over. So I became something else. Right. You know, think about when you're in high school, you know, when you're a senior in high school, you're you rule the school, and then you become a freshman in college and you're the bottom of the pile. So we we can't we're constantly changing identities, we're constantly changing the hats we wear and the and the masks we put on. And so we get to redefine and think about it in terms of something that's interesting or something that's fun or something that's different. You know, I don't need to be, oh, Michael Kay the was the was the you know the firm founder of this firm or was this. No, I I I don't I did that. That was okay, but now I'm doing this, okay? And if you wanted to find me, I or uh or identify me as a grandfather, okay, I'll take that. You can I'll wear that one. Uh a friend, uh a volunteer, uh, a writer, uh, whatever, you know, you can put whatever labels you want on me, but I am driven by my values. And one of the things I value is helping people, is doing things that help others. And so how can I do that? And and you know, what what can I do that supports that value? Um and so we I I think it's really important for us to think about to start with our values. Who are we? What do we care so much about? And how do we attach actions to those things? You know, whatever those things are. I know men who are retired who were there, they're taking courses in, you know, with kids who are, you know, 20 years, you know, 19 years old at universities, and they're sitting in taking courses and all kinds of different subjects that are interesting to them. So they're now, they went from, you know, executive vice presidents to students.

Todd 26:45

You know, like who cares, right? Right. Yeah, that's liberating, honestly. And it seems like we go through a series of identity crises as men in our lives. I remember high school, I was in sports. I identified as a football player, and that goes away, and you feel that sense of grief and loss. And then you go, I'm a college student. Oh, I'm doing this. I'm and we associate what we're doing with who we are. And I think it sounds to me like that's the issue. What we're doing is the the person that we are, and we need to think about it differently. Exactly.

Michael Kay 27:20

Exactly. I think you're spot on. You know, if we think about well, what is it that we value? What is it we who who are we when we strip away all the stuff and all the images and all the ego, who are we? What's our reason for getting out of bed in the morning?

Todd 27:38

Right. Yeah, and I confess when I was I was working for a big tech company in the past, and I my whole identity was wrapped up in that as an engineer. And, you know, the comp you know tech companies lay people off, and we were having annual layoffs. And every year when it came time for the layoffs, my I just kind of fell apart mentally because my identity was all wrapped up in that position, that job. And I felt as if I did if I didn't have that job, I was worthless to society, worthless to my wife and kids, and who am I without that? And that's so I'm you know, that's my issue, and I still struggle with that to an extent. And so looking forward to retirement someday, I'm I've got a lot of work to do.

Michael Kay 28:22

So but but think of it this way, Todd. And at this at this point of your life where you you're you're where you're focused on on supporting your family and and creating financial security, you're on mission, right? So anything that takes you off mission is a crisis. Yeah, right. And that makes sense. But once you've gone over that bridge where you say, okay, I've now achieved this financial security. I'm okay. Um now I can focus on something else. I can look forward to not worrying about staying on mission, other than maybe realigning my mission that's driven by my values. Yeah. Instead of the fact that I'm trying to create this security for my for yourself and your family. So like you know, these, you know, there's a season for everything, right? Right. This is this is a really good example of that. That, you know, it's like now's the time that you're focused on that mission. Right. And this is the time where I'm focused on a different mission because I've, you know, I've I've I'm in a different place. Yeah. So you're you're in you're in where you're you're where you should be.

Todd 29:37

Yeah. A lot of work to do, but I've I've come a long way, I think. Therapy's helped.

Michael Kay 29:43

So we're all works in process. You know, that's that's the key. We I've said this forever. We're always works in process. Yeah. Uh we're always hopefully evolving and and and changing. And the the the I think one of the big challenges is that this transition into the what I call chapter X is what are we evolving to?

The Crucible Of Change And Generativity

Michael Kay 30:08

And what do we need to get rid of? And what do we need to pick up? Okay, one of the things we need to get rid of is our identity, you know, or this identity issue of who we are. Uh, the other thing that we need to make sure is to recognize that we have pretty much all the tools we need and the skills we need to go into the next chapter successfully. We, you know, we the things that we learn, we've been through so many transitions in our life. Think about it. From the time that we are infants to to the present day, how many transitions we've gone through from being the baby in the crib that couldn't pick up their head to picking up their head to crawling to walking to being nonverbal to being verbal to, you know, to you know, being in in preschool to being graduating, you know, with a you know, having a PhD or a doctorate or whatever it is. We've gone through ever all these transitions to single to married to divorce to children to you know, all these, they're all different transitions. You know, getting a job, losing a job, creating a job, whatever it is, they're all things where we are in a state of flux. Yeah. And change is for most people hard okay. But what we need to do is we need to sit in that crucible of change, the heat and the fire of it, and realize that you can't grow being in your comfort zone.

Todd 31:41

No.

Michael Kay 31:42

If we're sitting in in kind of like this static whatever, we're not growing. Right? And the only way we're gonna, you know, it's just like it's like taking cold water and putting it into a kettle and turning on the heat. Okay. You're not gonna have a hot cup of coffee until you have that water boiled, right? And or until it's it, you're putting on, you're turning up the heat. And all those water molecules are getting angry and they're getting all upset and they're getting moved around. And it's the same thing. So we're applying, we're sitting in the crucible saying, okay, I've done this, I've gone through this before, I've gone through different changes before, I've gone through this change, that change, yeah. And I've come out the other end better than before. I got knocked down and I got back up again. Okay. I got slammed to the ground, I got fired, I got criticized, I got, you know, I lost a job out to somebody else. I all these failures, and I've gotten up again. And I'm sure you who've who've gone through the military, you know, can understand that in a in a in a way of you know, how you went from where you were the the first day of basic training to coming out the other side and the numbers of failures and the numbers of changes that you went through just to get from beginning to the end of that one cycle, right? Uh of exhaustion, of you know, all the other things that they talk about that I have uh no actual knowledge of, but have you know read about or or heard about. But you know, but we've but you did it, right? Right. And because of that you did it, you came out better. And it's the same thing. Right. The only difference is we have to shift our thinking to acknowledge that a portion of our life is over. And who do I want to be in this la what's important going into this last stage of my life for as long as I have it? And the idea of generativity, of being able to give back in some way to help someone else take the knowledge, the experience, the hard knocks, and pass it on to somebody, or to just cr do acts of uh kindness to other people because you know, during our time of our work, it's competition. Yeah, now we're we're the competition's over, right? Sorry, we're done. We're done competing. We don't have to, we're not trying to climb a ladder here. Okay, we're not trying to reach there's no the you know, the the definition of success in retirement has nothing to do with being the president of retirement. Or the I'm the CEO of retirement. Right. You know, uh I'm the chairman of the board of retirement, I'm a doctor of retirement. It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with defining what you care about and living the fullest life possible.

Todd 34:54

Right. Now you mentioned mindset.

Retirement Myths And Scaling Down Work

Todd 34:57

What are the lies we men tell ourselves to justify hanging on to that job longer than we should?

Michael Kay 35:05

Oh, I've heard so many um things like, oh, I still love what I do. Um and that might or might not be true. I mean, I it's hard for me to imagine that if you've been doing something for 40 or 50 years, that you you have the same passion for what you're doing now that you had 20, 30, 40 years ago. Or that there isn't something out there that potentially has an allure for you. Because I think in I think what happens is that we have in our mindset that in our minds that retirement is the endless weekend of nothing. And I think because of that, we don't invest the energy or time to think about how it can be dynamic. Yeah. And how it can benefit others.

Todd 36:02

Yeah.

Michael Kay 36:03

You know.

Todd 36:04

I think a lot of times with anxiety, we look at the future and think bad things. Yeah. And we think it's going to be a a long weekend and we don't like weekends because a lot of us face depression with weekends. So because we're not at work and we're not doing our mission, we're not, we're not accomplishing anything other than, you know, maybe we're doing chores and stuff around the house. But yeah, we we we fall into depression. And so we look at retirement like that. And right.

Michael Kay 36:31

Because we don't know, we can't imagine what it's like. So it but if we think if we if we kind of flip the flip the script a little bit, if you think about what you who you were on your first day of work in your first job, and I don't mean you know, like 12-year-old job, I mean as a you know, post post education. Can you think about, could you really imagine what it would be like to be where you are now? You couldn't you can't really imagine it. I mean, you say, oh, well, if I had the corner office, uh my life would be really simple and it would be great. Like people just be bringing me, you know, cupcakes and right? But we can't do it. Right, right, but we can't really imagine it. But we all because all we know is like this first day of work, like I don't know anything. Right. I I I don't know where the coffee is, let alone you know what to do. Um so the so the idea is to just say, okay, I how how do I imagine, how do I visualize a life that is not built around work? And what are some of the things that I can that might might be interesting? Um and and I think for a lot of people, the best way to do that is if they have the if they have the ability to, is to scale it. You know, instead of going from you know, 100% to zero, is to go from, you know, work four days a week and have three days off, have, you know, work, you know, work three days a week and you know, so start kind of sabbatical. Yeah, if they can do that, sure. But but thinking about scaling it to retirement and but you need to you need to devote time to kind of think about and imagine what are some of the things that might be interesting. I've had people all the time ask me, it's like, well, I don't know what to do. And I like, well, do something, try it, try anything. It doesn't matter what it is. Take a class, learn an instrument, uh, you know, learn a language, volunteer, uh, join a club, go for a hike, uh, you know, do something and see if you like it. If you like it, do it again. Yeah, if you don't like it, don't do it again. You know, like I I've shared the story. Uh when uh growing up, I was a classically trained trumpet player, and I studied with a teacher who literally broke me to tears every week. Uh literally, I mean, no joke. I mean, I became a really good he had two students. One was in Juilliard School of Music, and I was 14 years old, and I was 14 years old. And he he broke me to tears, but I became a really good player.

Todd 39:30

Yeah.

Michael Kay 39:31

When I turned, when I was around 18 years old or so, I heard a uh recording of a trumpet player who was my age, who was 18 years old, who happened to be the protege of Dizzy Gillespie. And if there's any jazz fans out there, you know, they know who Dizzy Gillespie is. And um, and I listened to him play and I said, I'm wasting my time. And I put my horn in the case and I didn't touch it again.

Beginner Mind And The Trumpet Return

Todd 39:58

Oh, wow. Yeah.

Michael Kay 39:59

And literally, literally 50 years later, I was sitting with a friend who was who is a uh very well-known musician and music educator, and he said to me, He goes, You know, why don't you think about playing again but doing it for fun? And I'm like, it never occurred to me that uh to do it for fun, because it was always like get be the best, be the best, be the best, be the best, be the best.

Todd 40:27

You turn things into chores.

Michael Kay 40:28

Right. Well, I I grew up in a family of all professional musicians. So um, you know, it's like be the best, be the best, be the best. And and um, and so I said, hmm, that's an interesting concept. Do it for fun. So I thought about it. I took the trumpet out of the case after 50 years. I started taking lessons again, and I started playing with an adult big band and having a great time. That's cool. And then uh a local community band asked if I would come and play with them. So I went to a rehearsal, didn't love the music, the people weren't very friendly, and I'm saying, well, I'm I'm really I'm it I'm an introvert, and I'm like, um I didn't feel good about it. Well, maybe it's me. So I I went to the second rehearsal, felt the exact same way. At the end of the rehearsal, I handed the music folder back to the conductor and said, sorry, I'm out. This is not for me. So it's like but I tried it.

Todd 41:28

Yeah.

Michael Kay 41:29

And I think that and but I think that's the attitude is like, try it. If you like it, great. If you don't like it, there's something else.

Todd 41:37

Yeah.

Michael Kay 41:38

Keep looking around. There's so many things. There's a there's there's millions of things to to to experience and experiment with. Just remember, you remember being young, being a kid and walking in the woods, turning over logs or rocks and seeing stuff and salamanders and fish in the brook and whatever. And it was all fascinating. It was all interesting. It was all like, wow.

Todd 42:02

Yeah. We had imagination and we could pretend.

Michael Kay 42:04

Right.

Todd 42:05

That was fun. Yeah.

Michael Kay 42:06

And we can recapture that. We can recapture that joy of discovery, that joy of that wonder of saying, wow, that's really cool. The act of noticing how much in our day is just like, you know, we don't see anything. We just kind of are we're on mission. But, you know, like I can go out for a walk and notice, you know, 20 things that I haven't seen before. Yeah. And it's just kind of being in touch with a different part of ourselves.

Todd 42:37

I think it all just boils down to identity. And we I think it's it's it's like an American thing, I believe, where we just identify ourselves with work. But then I've had colleagues over in Europe, they're like, hey, I'm taking August off. I'm gonna be on holiday, and they're gone for a month. And I think of that and the thought of being away from work for a month or two months or whatever, that scares me because it's like, I'm gonna be out of the game. I'm not gonna be performing according to my identity. And I think we could learn something from folks like Europeans who aren't just associating who they are with their jobs. So yeah, I think that's a mindset shift for heading into retirement.

Michael Kay 43:20

It totally is. And we have to give ourselves permission to think differently, to expand how we see ourselves and the world. Yeah. And how we see ourselves in the world, right? Because we can we can be in the box. Yeah. Like I have a very dear friend who is a little bit older than I am, and he he's an attorney, and he he he says he loves what he does, and he still works enormous numbers of hours. And when he maybe when he finally decides to to slow down, what's going to be left of him? Because he literally works he he says he aspires. To work five days a week. And it's not my job to judge him. It's not my job to do anything other than be there as his friend. But I sit and wonder, you know, when he finally does slow down, what's going to be left of him physically, you know, uh because of the the wear and tear. And we all get wear and tear.

Todd 44:21

Yeah, I've got a friend named Darren who worked in corporate life and he had a number in mind. And he he he he really planned this out and he said, okay, cool. When I reach my retirement number, I'm retiring. And he was in his 50s and he hid his retirement number and he walked away. He retired and he's just really thoroughly enjoying himself. So he was able to, he already had the mindset that, you know, hey, I'm not my job. And he was able to do that. And I had breakfast with him a while back. And, you know, it was just refreshing to sit with him and to hear that from him. But at the same time, knowing I'm not in that place mindset-wise, I still associate who I am with the work that I do. So I've got I've got a lot of work to do there.

Rewriting Old Workaholic Messages

Michael Kay 45:06

I'll throw this out and you tell me what you think. Um, I think so much of how we approach this is how we were raised and what messages that we received. Yes. And like my father, may you rest in peace, was that was born in the depression and he was a consummate workaholic. And it would be like if he would see me as a kid, as a kid on the couch, he'd say, Don't you have, you know, isn't there something you can do? Yep. Right? And to this day, if I'm sitting on the couch reading or something, I hear that, I hear his voice. And I'm like, Guilt. Yeah, like uh isn't there anything that you you know you you can get done? And and I have to like, well, thank you for your comment. I appreciate it. Uh I'm reading now, and what I need to get done, I will get done. Yeah. And go away.

Todd 45:57

Yeah.

Michael Kay 45:58

So so so I think a lot of it has to do with is recognizing where it comes from, yeah, and putting it in that in that perspective of saying, like, okay, this is the voice of my father, or this is the voice of my uncle or my grandfather, whoever it is. And it's not needed now. Okay. I understand their situation. I understand what drove my father, the way he was driven. Uh, I understood I how I worked my entire life from age 12. Right. Uh, but I don't have to be that person now.

Todd 46:38

Yeah, and I I think a lot of a lot of it is, yeah, it's that rearing, how we were taught growing up. Yeah. And my dad, you know, great, you know, he when I first got that job at age 12, he kind of gave me a pep talk when I was going to interview for the job. And he was like, you know, get in there and you do good work. You show value, you do this, you know. It was all about performance because that's what he knew. And uh, so I just took that all through adult life. And so I'm working on that mindset shift.

Michael Kay 47:07

So you know, we're as teenage, we're as children, we're sponges. We absorb everything and it goes right into the marrow of our bones. But now we get to a point in our life where we have to say, is this still necessary? Is it still relevant? Right? Do I need this now? If the answer is no, I don't need this anymore, then I need to say thank you, but you're not needed now. Yeah. And and say, what do I need now? And that's one of the big questions that people need to ask themselves in retirement is you know, what are the what are the aspects of my life that I need now? I need to, I need to curate my health, you know, I need to work to exercise, I need to eat well, I need to sleep well. Uh, I I need to uh you know have uh intellectual stimulation. I need to be with people, I need to uh do things that bring me joy. I need to, you know, see my family. I, you know, whatever, whatever those things are that that go into the kind of the stew of our happiness, of our joy, are the things that this is what I need now. What I had before, I don't need right now. I don't need anymore. I it was it was good for then, but not for now.

Todd 48:25

Yeah.

Michael Kay 48:25

It's like when you were, you know, seven and you were using crayons, right? You don't need crayons now. Not that not that crayons aren't fun, but right, you know, you don't need crayons right now. You needed them when you were seven.

Todd 48:40

I was in the I was in the Marines. Now we eat crayons. That's what we do. It's a military joke.

Michael Kay 48:46

So well, it's interesting. I my my first job uh was I worked for a butcher who was a marine uh rifle instructor and cook.

Todd 48:55

Oh wow, okay, yeah.

Michael Kay 48:57

He was he was like a second father to me. I mean, he was like, but everything that was precise, everything was had to be perfect. And my job was to clean. You know, I would come back every day after five days a week after school, every day, and empty the cans and scrub the the cases and uh scrape the floors, and but it had to be done to his specification. And if it wasn't to his specification, it had to be done over again.

Todd 49:26

Yeah. And brains do a lot of cleaning, so I can you're speaking, and I'm like, yep, yep, yep.

Michael Kay 49:31

Right? So so it was so that mindset of doing things properly and completely and thoroughly was really helpful for me in my life. Yeah. You know, show up on time, finish what you start, do what you say you're gonna do, finish what you start. Yeah. Right? And do it perfectly. Yeah. And there and there are no shortcuts. Yeah. You know, he he would share stories with me of of you know being on the as a rifle instructor and being on the range with here, whatever his, I forget what his rank was, but he'd be, you know, have guys who were way up there, and he'd be, you know, moving them around and you know, this way and that way. And it's like, you know, this is the way you do it. There's no BS, there's no compromise. So um that's uh how I kind of learned that was one of my one of my great uh teachers.

Todd 50:25

Nice. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. So we

Visualizing Life After Career Ends

Todd 50:29

talked about why we struggle with retirement, but so let's talk about how men can prepare themselves. Now, as you're working with a guy, maybe he's five years, maybe 15 years away from retirement. What is a very common thing that you have to deal with with them? What uncomfortable steps do you typically have to walk them through?

Michael Kay 50:48

I think it's getting them to think outside of their current situation is really challenging. And, you know, what I'll try and do is take them if I'm if I'm doing some coaching with them, is to take them through some exercises, some visualizations. You know, you are, this is where you are. You know, how does it feel? What what are those, what are those impressions? What are the things that feel wrong? Or, you know, is to understand that, you know, this next chat to prepare for the next chapter of your life, what goes into that, what goes into that stew? Uh, what, what would what it would it look like? Let's visualize what it would look like for you to feel excited, interested, safe, secure, and confident to move forward. And obviously, one of the things is financial security. And it's like, okay, what are you doing about it? What are your choices? What are your resources? What is your lifestyle? What does your lifestyle look like post-career? Uh, what what resources do you have? Do you expect to work part-time? Do you what are some of those things? Uh, and then let's start lining up some thoughts about some wish lists. What are things that might might interest you today? And if you just tell me all you want to do is play golf, I'm gonna throw you out. Yeah. Because that's just a lack of imagination. Right. You know, not there's nothing wrong with golf if you're a golfer. Yeah. But if that's all, if that's it, if that's the end, if they put a period at the end of that sentence, yeah, unless you're on the senior circuit, goodbye. You're you're not doing your job.

Todd 52:30

Yeah. I know a f I have a friend, he uh he was a mentor to me when I was in my 20s. I met him when he was 51 and he sold his business at age 38 and retired. He said, I went fishing for three years. He's like, I was I got so miserable. I hated fishing. So and he ended up taking a job working at Lowe's Home Improvement in the kitchen and bath, and he loved it. And I mean, he's he's retired. He didn't need money, he needed something to do. He was winning employee of the month all the time, and just he was just happy at work, and it was a retail environment, and he just loved it. So yeah, we can't just plan to do nothing.

Michael Kay 53:10

So I was talking to one guy who was a very successful executive, and he got a job working at his gym, like handing towels out. It's like six o'clock in the morning, and he loved it. He was there, you know, because he's a very social guy and seeing all his friends, and you know, and he'd get a chance to chit-chat with all these people. And to him, it was great fun. It wasn't funny, it was definitely not a financial uh decision, but you know, so it's like what can you do that could be fun? Are you, you know, how do you get how do you grab onto onto curiosity again? Yeah. And that that feeling is because what you know, what happens, Todd, you know, we go from novice to mastery over and over and over in our lives. You know, from the time we're we're babies, we go from novice to mastery, novice to mastery, over and over and over and over again. But when we get to retirement and we are a novice in retirement, we still think we are in mastery of our work, but the work doesn't exist to be masters over. So we need to take that novice mind, that that that the the learner's mind, the beginner's mind to say, huh? Wow, what what are my opportunities? It's not what did I lose, but what are my opportunities?

Todd 54:32

Yeah.

Michael Kay 54:32

You know, how do I take all the skills, knowledge, ability, habits, strengths, and how do I build on that in this next chapter?

Todd 54:41

Right. Curiously, yeah, imagination, going back to what we had as kids, but just being able to have fun and use our imagination and come up with new things.

Michael Kay 54:53

Yeah. And and and the the one of the biggest problems that men have is when they talk about like purpose is this feeling like if it's not like curing world hunger, it's not worthwhile. Right? It's like, well, if I can't cure cancer, what what's the point? All right. But the the reality is that we can find meaning and purpose in the smallest things because it's meaningful to us. Yeah. Right. I have uh uh I have three granddaughters and two of them live locally. And you know, if I have the opportunity to take the little one to preschool in the morning, it's awesome. We have the best time in the car. Yeah um I she had no school today. I took her to the gym with me, and it's a little private gym, and she had the best time, and I have had the best time watching her. Uh a little five-year-old running around. And like that to me, it was completely this was this was a a a five-star day. Nice. Because it it's something I value. Yeah. Um that's cool. Yeah, and and it's not complicated, but it's actually really being in that place.

Todd 56:13

Right? Present right there. And you're not thinking about what are I gonna get done next.

Michael Kay 56:18

It's just being having the joy of being present to watch this little five-year-old do a a push-up against the box that she's never done before.

Todd 56:27

That's great.

Michael Kay 56:28

Right. I something is so simple. But the fact of the matter is, is being present to whatever opportunities are in front of you to say, does this bring me joy? If it does, do it again.

Todd 56:42

Yeah, more of that.

Michael Kay 56:43

Right? Yeah, I want more of that. Right. If I have a time to sit and write something, uh and I'm sharing my thoughts or my like, okay, that was great. I really, whether it's great writing or not, I'm not so sure. But right do I get a chance to share my thoughts? And then I get an email from someone saying I really appreciated that, or that was really timely, or that was really helpful. Like, great. Five star day. Boom. Love it. Yeah, yeah. Drop the mic, done.

Todd 57:14

Good stuff. Well, that's a good place to wrap it up here.

Connect With Michael And Next Steps

Todd 57:18

Um, how do people connect with you, Michael?

Michael Kay 57:21

So uh you can find me I uh on um through my website. Uh it's uh www.michaelf as in frank, k a y dot com. Uh you can find my book, How to Craft Your Chapter X on Amazon. Um, you can find me on LinkedIn. Uh you can email me. If you go onto the website, you can get my blogs, uh, the announcement for podcasts or Zoom meetings. Um, there's no cost to anybody. Uh I do this because it's my passion to do it. Nice. And um if you have questions, I'm more than happy to jump on a call, uh, jump on a Zoom and have a conversation. Uh and again, because we're all in this together. We all share this planet, we all share this space, and we all go through stuff. And having someone walk next to you sometimes can help.

Todd 58:16

Yes, we need each other.

Michael Kay 58:18

We do.

Todd 58:19

Indeed. Yeah, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

Michael Kay 58:23

Oh, it's my joy.

Todd 58:24

And and my my takeaways here, just for men, because my mom, she retired and just went right into retirement. She it's like ladies are good at it because they don't they don't identify with their jobs, they identify with their families. So we're speaking to men today, primarily. But whatever phase you're in with your profession, be careful that it doesn't become your identity. And I say this as someone who's identified with my job for much of my adult life. And it's especially common for Americans to do this. Be careful about that and start looking to make that mindset change. And start making a plan for life outside of work, even if you're mid-career. Start working on things with family, friends, hobbies, and just connecting with other people. And as men, when we retire, money is typically not the biggest struggle. It really is just losing that identity and trying to find our place in that new world. So uh connect with Michael, go check out his website. He's got a couple of books. He's also got a book called The Feel Rich Project. That looks interesting. So we'll put links to his website and also to his books up here. And if you've enjoyed this episode, please think about leaving us a review or sharing it with your friends. And if you have any feedback, we've got links there to send us a text, send us an email, uh, give us the feedback. We really appreciate that. And until next time, we'll see you on the panel.