Cold Open And Meet Eric

Todd 0:00

This is the cluttered path, a compass for midlife.

Speaker 3 0:03

The path is gone, the path, the middle cluttered, the field, the middle cutter, the clear card, fair cards.

Todd 0:14

My guest today spent 24 years as an FBI special agent, investigating white-collar crime, counterterrorism, crimes against children, gangs, and drugs. He served as a squad operator for 15 years, and then he was a firearms and tactics instructor. But before the FBI, he was in Christian ministry for 12 years, including a stint as a pastor of a Baptist church in Western New York. He's written a memoir entitled Irreverend, and it's set for release later this year. My pleasure to introduce retired special agent and former pastor, Eric Robinson. Eric, welcome to the show.

Eric 0:51

Do you know how I know you're from North Carolina? It's because you pronounce Baptist as Baptist. Okay, you say Baptist. Two B's. Two B's, no P's. Baptist.

Todd 1:05

We use the Queen's English here in Michigan. So you're in Michigan. Do you have a winter car and a uh summer car? Oh. I've heard about that.

Eric 1:17

Uh no. We uh that's that might be a little farther north. We're I'm barely over the border from Ohio. But uh rather than that, what we have is a constant hazel smoke or what? So which no way. Oh, they've got wildfires. No, it's from Ontario. Oh my gosh.

Todd 1:38

It's like in the house, you smell so that's crazy with everything sealed up. Yeah, it's crazy. That's interesting stuff. Now, listen, I gave the media overview of your

Growing Up In Faith And Calling

Todd 1:48

life. You've got a very interesting life and career path, and I just can't I just didn't do your life justice. So would you mind spending a couple of minutes introducing yourself, like where you're from, family background, and then just the wave tops of your career?

Eric 2:02

Yeah, uh I grew up in the Toledo, Ohio area and got to come back there with the FBI, transferred after eight years in to be back near home. Uh spent the first eight years in Chicago, found out I hate big cities, so that was nice to get back to a just a medium-sized city. But the Robinsons were ones who just always went to church. I grew up in a Christian home, not in a uh demanding way. It's just, you know, this was part of our lives. My my mother was the real spiritual leader of the family, but I really honored how my dad would make those attempts to uh he would read us daily devotions before school, and it was just a couple minutes, but something to remind us, hey, this is who we are and this is what we try to be. Grew up in the faith, I had a precocious knowledge of the Bible, so Sunday school teacher asked questions, my hand was up. As I got to college, my faith became more personal. I read the Bible more, got into it, and came to a place where I thought, you know, maybe this is what I should be doing for a career. I went on a mission trip uh to the Middle East in 1990, which was coincidentally when um Saddam Hussein went on an excursion too. So we had fighter jets landing at our airport on the skip over while we were ready to leave. But as I came back, I had uh purchased a ring in a Turkish bazaar as a sort of promise that I would return as a missionary to these Muslim countries. So the start of my senior year, I saw four cute Christian gals that I knew from our ministry sit at a uh frozen yogurt shop. So I sat down, I took off the ring, and I put it on the table, and I said, Who wants to marry me and go to Turkey? And this one curly-headed girl took the ring, put it on her finger, and said, I will. And I remember thinking, I wasn't I wasn't really talking to you because you've got a boyfriend. Like, what are you doing here? And then two years later, I put a better ring on her finger as we had intent to go overseas as missionaries. Some family difficulties made that probably not the best decision. So then I stayed stateside and went through that normal route of youth pastor, then associate pastor, until in the uh mid to late 90s, planted a church in western New York that was modeled to be one of outreach, where I didn't want to just shuffle Christians from one church to another. I I took that group and I said, We're if we're gonna make a mistake, we're gonna err on the side of grace. So we'll let God judge us for being too open and welcoming. And I gave them a flinch test to say, can you welcome people who aren't dressed like they should be for church, smell alcohol in their breath, piercings, tattoos, homosexual couples, interracial couples. Like, can you say I'm glad you're here and and you show it? And we were successful, and lives were changing, new people were coming to church. But one thing I found was that I lacked the ability to separate myself from people's problems. So when they came to me with normal, normal pastoral issues, that burdened me, which led to stress-related headaches every single day for two years in at the end of my ministry. And it was at the end of my ministry because that's when I thought I can't do this. I I fought through this long enough. I need to find a job with less dress stress, I'm sure. That's why I joined the FBI in 2002. That's great. Wow.

Todd 5:52

It now it just it was for me. Dude, you've said so much that it speaks. So, first off, I was in the Marines, and in 1990, I was in boot camp when Saddam invaded Kuwait. So it sounds like we're about the same age, but uh Saddam invaded Kuwait when I was in boot camp. And then what's funny is so I didn't grow up in a Christian home. I got I became a Christian at age 12, but didn't really get discipled until after I joined the Marines. And so what happened is I, you know, after boot camp, all my friends were getting orders to units that were deploying to Saudi Arabia. I ended up getting orders to DC, ended up in a church up there where I met my wife, and we were in a singles group, and interesting, you're you're saying now you put the ring down which one of you wants to marry me, huh? My friend and I, a couple of Marines, we go in and we're sit, we sit down in this uh, you know, singles gathering for the Super Bowl Super Bowl party in 1991, and he and I saw my wife, and we were arguing over who was gonna go talk to her. So I always tell my wife, I'm like, Yeah, you know, you could have been married to him. So yeah, I was like, bro, that's not happening, dude. But you got to it was a Baptist church got a call, and uh now I'm trying to say Baptist with a P so but uh speak how you do the Baptist church, and he was Catholic, and so I said, Bro, you're Catholic, she's not gonna date you. And he goes, Oh, okay, reasonable. So interesting though. We we haven't talked about this before, but kind of uh similar arcs. But uh now you but but you weren't you you mentioned that you planted a church.

How A Church Plant Really Works

Todd 7:35

That's tough work. And I I've been involved in some church plants. So can you walk us through that process of planting a church?

Eric 7:45

Yeah, I I was an associate pastor at a at a very conservative older uh Baptist church in in uh Lakewood, New York, and there was a push within the denomination to uh say, hey, let's start new churches. I was maybe 26, 27 at the time. I said, I I'd love to be able to do that. Uh for our denomination, there's a process of vetting, then you go to you know week-long school, there's some um interaction to see if you're prepared for it. Crazy enough, like one of the things they do is say, Okay, you know, here's all these pastors, teach them the gospel. Like just give them a little a little opening, try to win them over to Christ. And I had grown up in college doing that, and so I go, Yeah, here you go. Boom, boom, boom. This was what I had always done. The other guy comes to me, he's like, So, do you believe in evolution? I'm like, Well, that's not, hey, that's that's like asking, like, hey, Eric, tell me your story. I'm like, Well, I was born on a hot summer day soon after the moon landing. Like, let's bump that up a bit. Um, but then then it was a matter of talking to, like, just making appeal to say, this is what I'm looking to do. This is the type of ministry. Are you interested? And we got uh a handful of dedicated Christians say, Yeah, I'd like to try to do something different that might have an impact. And you know, we start in this small place. Uh our first our first church was in a VFW, and the children's ministry was at the bar, and so you didn't know if that was a kid's vomit or from the night before. Um you know, and setting up, like renting places. It it it was it's it's a lot of work, and a lot of the reason the stress came for me is because that was me. I was the sole, I was the only guy, and I didn't have someone I could express difficulties to. I know it was self-imposed, but there's this notion of the pastor's got to have it together, he's gotta be perfect, and so I didn't feel comfortable you know finding somebody to say, hey, this is what I'm struggling with, this is hard. And that's that also you know, then in impressed that stress when I got into the FBI. Obviously, we you're going through traumatic things, you're seeing disgusting, horrible stuff. But here's 25 people around me who were either there, so they get it, or know that. So now you've got peers that are at your level and say, Oh, yeah, no, I get it.

Stress Headaches And Performative Church Culture

Todd 10:26

So you didn't have anyone really to talk about the stress when you were a pastor.

Eric 10:31

No, and you know, I I was fairly young, so that's my fault. Looking back, if I was gonna set it up, I would say, okay, I need to find some other pastors or or some uh older men who are gonna say, uh I'm dedicated to you. Tell me whatever you need, no judgment, let me help you. I I had men who supported me, but it it wasn't I held back.

Todd 10:52

I don't know if your church was this way where where you came from, but uh it seems like in churches it's more performative in American churches where everyone is kind of uh, you know, you have a prayer request and it becomes more of a, you know, hey, look what I did type thing rather than you know, it's performance. And so you're in church and you're kind of looking around you as you know, you're comparing yourself to others and going, you know, hey, pray for uh, you know, my coworker because and then you just tell a self-aggrandizing story and all this stuff. But what that does is it causes people not to want to talk to one another. You don't want to talk about your problems and what you're struggling with. So I don't know. I'm guessing maybe there could have been some of that, but what do you think?

Eric 11:36

Oh, there's always that, and and I did not know how to break through that. I I think you know, I'm trying to get people to open up, and and many are, but not me, because I got I got I gotta be the one who's keeping his foot out of the mud so I can help you out. So you go ahead and talk and you be authentic. But but I I need to be this guy, and like I said, self-imposed, but also there's a bit of truth to it, too, that people want their pastors to be upright, uh you know, completely. Have no this don't want to see him at the liquor store, right? Don't want to catch him smoking a cigar in the backyard.

Todd 12:15

It's communion wine. Stop. I mean, come on. That's what I like to do. Yeah, yeah. It's you know, it's for the Lord. I I drink religiously. Just kidding. It's uh only communion wine. Yeah. Anything else you want to share about uh the ministry?

Eric 12:30

Oh, uh I I I worked with great people, but again, here's the difference between church, this is why I say honestly, it was less stressful. When I in the FBI would come across criminals behaving badly, okay, well, that's what criminals do. I that's why I'm looking at them. And then in the church, you're like, oh, you should be acting Christ-like. And when people don't, because inevitably they will, and not just like you have your faults, as we're talking about, but more of like you're attacking me, you're betraying me, you're being cruel to me or others, that's a that's a big letdown. And so I through my time in ministry, I can say for certainty, I will spend eternity with some of the people that I hate the most. Because I have I have no reason to doubt their salvation, and got and God can forgive, but these are people again, not really many from my first church, but others who like just would attack and be spiteful and weaponize the Bible in in such bad ways that yeah, got God's gonna accept you into heaven, and you're a real ass here.

Todd 13:42

I've seen that, man. It's like uh just so much you know, weaponizing the Bible. That that pretty much summarizes it. And uh performative and then basically grabbing one piece of scripture and using that to you know further your agenda, imposing your will on scripture, and then trying to use that to get what you want. I dude, I've I heard, I've heard Jordan Peterson talk about taking the Lord's name in vain. That's exactly what taking the Lord's name in vain is.

Eric 14:14

Right. It's not saying, God damn it, or Jesus Christ. It's it's using it's it's saying I'm I'm a believer, I'm a follower, and here's how I'm going to bring harm to you. And of course, I assume you've heard this, like Christians will all often they're just me. I'm speaking the truth in love. And and they're yeah, and the the love is well, I'm telling you what's right so you can correct yourself, uh bludgeoning you with it. And I've come to a point where I realize, oh, I'm gonna stop doing that. I'm just gonna love. Let's let's take that angle so you get rid of all the other stuff, and if you want to, we can try to look for the truth together, and I'm not gonna act like I know, but uh yeah, like just bring the love.

Todd 15:03

Yeah. I I was listening to a sermon one time, and the pastor spent a lot of time talking about all the rewards he was gonna get in heaven that other that we weren't, and it was just like, what? And I'm like, okay, cool. Well, I'll see you in heaven, but you're you're gonna be surprised that there's no VIP section. So anyways, that was funny.

Joining The FBI At Thirty-Two

Todd 15:28

But okay, so let's let's let's get over to in your on your website. You say, you know, what was it? What do you what is your website again? Preacher to breacher? Not a bigger one. Preacher to the breacher. So uh so you decide to go to the FBI as a stress reliever, and uh but you'd never fired a gun before joining the FBI at age 32. And and from what I've learned, you've had you had like 50 guys, is that right? About 50 guys in your academy class that were just former cops in military.

Eric 15:59

Well, uh a lot of different backgrounds, but there will always be former cops and military in the FBI. Part of the um strength of the FBI is its diversity. We we lack a bit in race and gender, it's it's a lot of white men, but we gain from the diversity of this background that can come in with a creative idea. So I've had this experience as a pastor, you've had this experience as a scientist, as a politician. So that adds to the collaborative method that we get.

Todd 16:32

Yeah, I imagine your perspective coming into that really, really helped with investigations and working with people.

Eric 16:37

It did, yes. It's and so while you say, like, here's here's cops, you know, here's guys from the military, by the time we now get out into the field, I've got to leg up on them because I've spent 12 years learning how to connect with people. Like you you can imagine, like the my my story is unique and it's a bit odd, and people are like, How does that work? But eventually, I've got every agent has to reach out to people. We've got to work informants, we've got to draw out uh witnesses, we have to make victims feel like they're safe, and we have to try to break down the criminals. So that ability to listen, to be open, and and this is what's great that the non-judgmental part, now when I bring that to the criminals, the judgment is gonna come in in court, so I'm gonna leave it for there. And so here I am interrogating a sex offender, and they're expecting just disgust from me. And if I can now relate to them like this, in some ways, even being supportive in getting them through this ordeal, that breaks through. And now they're telling me stuff they shouldn't be telling me. Yeah, I mean, and I can attest.

Todd 17:52

I mean, I spent six years in the Marines and the infantry. Coming out, a lot of my friends were going into law enforcement, and the mindset coming out of the military was yeah, it was like I were, you know, pretty much disdain for criminals. And so trying to interact with them, if I would if I'd become a police officer at that point in my life, I would not have treated them well, I would have been disrespectful to them, and you know, and it would not have been a good thing.

Eric 18:18

So when when I would come with 12 other of my buddies with long guns pointed at you, and I tear down your door, then I put handcuffs on you and tell you I'm taking you to prison. If I have to now prove to you further that I'm in charge, I you know, I there's no way I can break through at that point if you still think I need to show that I'm in charge. I've already shown I'm in charge. And so that's done. I've established that I am the one who's going to dictate what's happening. And then if I condescend, that's unexpected. That's almost a gift to you. Like, oh, this guy could be slapping me around and yelling at me, but he's being um kind, supportive, professional. Oh, okay. And I mean, the number of times that you see people's demeanor change from defensive and aggressive to collaborative.

Todd 19:16

Right. And if it's for the people's good. I imagine that once people feel comfortable with you, then they just start confessing all kinds of things. Is that does that happen?

Earning Trust With Victims And Offenders

Eric 19:26

It it can, like, especially with the sex offenders. Like, I don't have to tell them they're disgusting. They already know they are and they feel that way. Um I mean, there were so many times like working with teen prostitutes. They don't they don't trust me. I'm an I'm an adult. Right. They've never seen an adult who had any value in their life. You know, parents are absent or abusive. Um, that's why they're in this in the first place. Cops are always chasing them. That's now what I'm doing. But I would so often, like now, I'm searching for ways to break through and show them I'm safe. I'm gonna introduce you to other safe people who are actually here for your benefit, right? Which is so often contradictory to I I just arrested her pimp, that's her soulmate. You know, she's she's slapping me, she's screaming, she's I got snotty tissues in my Tahoe. But breaking them away from that mesmerizing force, okay. Now in some time, now they're seeing we're we're doing this for their car.

Todd 20:31

I can't imagine working with a teen prostitute, man. It's my heart would be breaking. So did you did did that lay with you? I mean, did that stay with you and affect you mentally?

Eric 20:42

Well, okay, so it's starting just specifically with the teen prostitutes, they were usually very uh antagonistic. So it you know, it's hard, it's it's hard to feel sympathy. I mean, I still did, but it's not like your heart's breaking while they're trying to break your skull, too. But those things uh I mean part of it is we were already waiting in that water, and so it, you know, if I grabbed you and then put you in that, that would be more of a shock, pushing you into a cold pool. You know, now it's a shock to you. If I've been in this water for a while, so it's not quite that. But as I said, having people around, uh, my partner Laura and I would talk about these things, and we're not saying, oh man, this is hard, or I feel for them. We may, but we're just talking about it, and that's bringing this into reality, which is helpful to uh overcome rather than just never observing, pushing it down. I'm getting mud splattered on me, and I'm never looking down to you know to dust that off. So just having those conversations with a knowing person is helpful.

Todd 21:56

I didn't know that early in life, but now I do. So Thankful to know that. But um now, so you spent fifteen years on SWAT. Am I saying that right? I mean, how do you guys refer to it? I was on the SWAT team. I was on SWAT. I was a SWAT operator, you know.

Eric 22:13

Uh yeah. Yeah. All those things are correct. I had an analyst who used to call us uh SWAT people and I go, hey buddy, it's it's operator. And then our team leader was doing an instruction once, and he goes, Hey, you know, those you role players, when you're working with these SWAT people, and I look back at him, he's like, Yeah. All you SWAT weenies.

Todd 22:33

Say whatever you want. This is what uh you gotta do. So okay, you spent 15 years on SWAT. Can you talk about one moment that's still in your body?

A SWAT Warrant That Turned Deadly

Eric 22:45

This is it actually two years ago to to this day uh that this happened. That's that's coincidental. So two years ago, we were called to an operation in uh the Canton, Ohio area, and this operation we we were asked to execute the search warrant and arrest of uh the subject because he had some mental health issues, he had some interactions with police before, and they were violent. Um he was distributing child pornography. That raises the threat level a bit because these are people who often they they know what's happening, and so they've been preparing for this, they'll shoot themselves or us. The last the last deaths in the FBI were from um came from a child predator. So, yeah, you know, if if a supervisor says we this is kind of a dangerous situation, we call in. Yep, we'll do that. We have some different tools, much more training, and so um we're doing what other agents do, but we just have uh more training at it. So as we made entrance to the property, uh myself and two other operators are covering the side and back of the house, setting up a tactical L while the assault's gonna come from a different direction. And uh for us, we get in place, the loudhaler calls out our presence, and soon after that, my buddy Steve yells, drop the bat. So, what had happened is the subject, kid in his mid-20s, had kicked out a first story window and had come out and was coming towards us deliberately with a bat in hand. With a firearm, you know, we've got cover, you get one chance, and then we're gonna employ deadly force. This is a situation where we had wanted to I nobody wants to kill a person. We want to give him every opportunity to make the right decision. People usually do that. But as he continued to come forward, I immediately I get on my mic and I called for a hands team because I was hoping that the kid would throw the bat, put it down or something, we could rush him. Uh unconventional, but we'd break cover and now take him down and arrest him physically. And I remember being pissed because nobody responded. We didn't get the hands team. So as the kid finally came around the vehicle and we had kept retreating, there's only so far we can go. The DOJ's deadly force policy says if there is an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury to ourselves or others, then we can employ deadly force. We're not required to uh maybe get hit in the neck and have serious nerve damage for years. And so the kid's last words as he charged with the bad overhead was kill me. As as I had moved offline so that my buddies had a clear lane of fire, I threw a flashbang to hopefully distract him, do something. And as I threw it, he went down. And I thought, that's weird. Why would you do that? And then I rolled the tape really quick in my head as I'm staring at him, and I think, oh, those were gunshots. I'm staring at him, then we pounced on him, cuffed him, not sure if he has any other weapons underneath him, and immediately rendered aid. We cleared the house, and I asked my buddy uh when we'd finished, how long do you think that was? Which is crazy because I I had that sense in my head of like, this is gonna be one of those anomalies. And he goes, uh, probably five minutes. And I said, Yeah, that's what it felt like. I guarantee you it's less than that. And our shooting was the first in the FBI with body worn cameras, and we go back and look at the sequence, and it was a minute and a half, and that call that I made for a hands team took ten seconds, like which is about the time it takes to get guys together and move. And and I remember thinking, like, why are they not coming? And and yet they were there as soon as they could be. I uh I looked at my Garmin details afterwards, and you can tell me the minute we got into a shooting where you can see how my blood pressure, my wow, beats per minute spiked for that short period because my body, my body said, Hey uh, you're you're in a bad situation, let me give you some extra juice because you're gonna need this. And then also noticing as it goes up to 178 beats a minute, you wouldn't be having this conversation if it didn't then go down, which was part of the training. Here's here's an anomaly, here's a unique situation you need to fight. Now we're back to okay, you're clearing a house, this is what you've done hundreds of times. And just that slowing down of time. The I you know, I can't tell you like how many thoughts went through my head in that half second of the shooting and looking at him.

Todd 28:04

Uh, but all that you know internally speeds up, externally slows down. Yeah, and I I heard that in those situations, sometimes your body will shut down some of your senses, like hearing or something, to focus. And so someone shot this kid, right?

Eric 28:20

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was right in front of me, and then to my left were two operators who shot him. And I've been I've been present for three shootings, and each time it wasn't that, oh, those are gunshots. And I've been at the range, I I've been around hundreds of thousands of guns being fired. Um and each of the three times it was a situation of I think that was a gunshot, which which is I mean, crazy to think, but yeah, my focus is here. I don't even notice it's simultaneous with a flashbang, but outdoors flashbangs aren't that loud, but it happens simultaneous, and I thought, right, but oh, that's why it's odd that he went down.

Todd 29:08

And then you had the brotherhood to lean on after that, so you guys were able to talk and process it, right?

Eric 29:15

Yeah, so our team leader Ben did I he had been preparing for this not too long before, maybe six months. He had been in contact with other team leaders that had been in shootings, deadly force scenarios, and he had been asking them advice. What what you know, how did you guys screw it up? What did you do that was good? How would you change it? And so he was gaining that knowledge such that now when the shooting comes, the advice we'd always gotten is shooters never say anything. Get away from them. You don't want them to have this utterance that now you can testify against. And what our team leader had learned is right that now isolates in a in a very negative way. Like, let them be smart to not talk about this. But he immediately, with the two shooters, he said, You shadow him, you shadow him. If he needs anything, if you see anything, let us know. And you know, and then it almost became a joke where the guy's like, Hey man, I gotta pee, you know, give give me give me a little room here. Uh so that was something learned. And then when we did we do after action reviews for every operation, sit down, talk about what happened and how we did it well. And so for this, rather than mandate, you guys are all gonna see a counselor, you guys have to talk to the chaplain, whatever. That's good. We just did an after-action review with everybody, and nothing was dictated. Employee assistants was there, chaplain's there, but we just went around the room and talked about what we saw, what our role was. Yeah, and guys are adding, you know, some of the feelings too. And I remember going around and we got to my buddy Matt, and I hadn't even spoken yet, and this kid died right in front of me. Yeah, and they go to Matt, and I go, What the hell does Matt have to say? He wasn't even there, but I knew what he was gonna say, and it was I felt like I let the team down because my kid was sick, and so I stayed off that op. And yet here you guys are, and maybe I could have done something. Yeah, and I and I knew that's what he was gonna say because that's what I would say, and that's that's what anybody else who's gonna be honest or open about it would say is like you guys were there, and I wasn't. And it's not like I missed out on the adventure, I missed out being a part of with you to support you.

Todd 31:50

Yeah, I mean that's so important to be talking, and yeah, you can't mandate it, you can't force people to go see the chaplain or any of that stuff. It's got to be brothers just sitting down together and sisters. But um just on the flip side of that, and here's why a buddy of mine, he stayed in the military. I got out. We were in 1st Battalion 6 Marines down at Camp Lejeune. When he was a sergeant major, he went back to 1st Battalion 6 Marines, we just call it 1-6. So he goes back to 1-6 as a sergeant major, and he was on their last combat deployment to Afghanistan in 2012. But he had learned from a negative perspective because a unit came back from Afghanistan and they just turned everyone loose. Uh they didn't sit and talk about things. And it's all these young, it's kids, 18 to 20, 22 years old. And nobody knew in leadership that we need to sit down and just have conversations about this stuff. They just come back from Afghanistan. Uh no decompression. They just come back from Afghanistan and they turn everyone loose. So these kids go get a lot of alcohol and throw a raucous party. And the MPs get called. Now, this is on base, thankfully, it wasn't out in the civilian area, but they started a riot on base. Like the MPs came and these are combat veterans, kids, and the MPs were overwhelmed. They're turning over dumpsters or flipping cars. There was literally a riot at Camp Lejeune. And my Sergeant Major friend was telling me about it, and I'm just like, you've got to sit and talk about things. And that just applies, it's not just you know, stressful situations, violence and stuff like that. It's like everything. You got to sit and talk and process things.

Eric 33:36

Yeah. And and not even programmed, like we're gonna talk about this and then this. But starting with the very unthreatening, tell me what you did. Um, and and that is going to allow for the expression of just reliving it, but again, bringing it to life rather than having it inside and unaddressed. And now, as I talk about it, as you talk about it, now you know what? That made me feel like this. And so, you know, you don't have to be crying. You know, we don't have to be, you know, hugging each other, but there there is an expression of you know, the feelings are gonna creep out a little bit, and then that opens up the opportunity for you know, two days later, like, hey buddy, you know, when you said this, uh Todd, you know, I I kind of felt that too. And now now we're getting a little bit deeper on top of that. And for me, what was the the final physical or mental um expression of this was I remember uh the so the kid died. Uh his his his final gift to us was that he was HIV positive. So as these guys are scalable deep in his blood, you know, now they're all getting checked too. Yeah. Uh but I remember thinking, not that I I I wasn't sad or regretful. Like the kid, he forced it. But I go to bed that night, I can't sleep because I'm running it. I'm running the same scenario through my head repeatedly. And I'm doing that because I'm I'm hoping, okay, this time we don't have to shoot him. Like this time he just surrenders. Like my mind is saying, let's do that again, but this time the kid doesn't die. So, you know, maybe that's regret. It's it's more of the just disappointment that this had to be this way. And my mind, I don't like that we had to kill someone. And that was my stance from the beginning of like, I don't want to shoot him. And yet, here's my mind going, let's see if we can do this a different way. TV shows don't capture any of this. No, they just like they show me drinking and like you know, kicking the dog or something like that. Yeah, that can happen, but that happens when you're not getting things out, like you said.

Todd 35:59

Now you have a riot. So you got two forms of brotherhood here. We've got the church, you got the FBI. I think I know the answer. Which one was more real and more close for you?

Eric 36:14

It's obvious, man. I'm not I'm not even gonna answer because the one is wearing a mask, performative. It it's it's also it can be very deep. There, there are there's shared beliefs and desires. There's a sh like in the church we planned, we had a shared goal and mission. So all that really adds to where we're going, but at the same time, um, I know you're gonna be looking over at me, and I gotta I gotta make sure I'm rolling the boat in in good form, you know, as we move towards that. Yeah, I don't I don't want you to see that I'm taking a break. So that it's it's so often there. If you can break through that and say, let's all just be authentic and caring for each other, non-judgmental, that's awesome, but we we infrequently get there. On the other hand, here's guys that I'm risking my life with that I'm sacrificing my safety for, and they're doing the same to me. Yeah, you know that's building tremendous bonds that like nobody's talking about how, hey man, thanks for covering my exposed area where I could have been killed, or you know, a threat was there, and you put your body in that space, that means so much to me. Nobody's saying that. Yeah, I mean, I have to say and you feel it.

Todd 37:43

Even when you're de when I was in the Marines, you're deployed. Sometimes you just hate a guy. I mean, there's just guys, you're just like, oh, I can't stand that guy. But then you get back from whatever, your operation, your deployment, and then you guys all spread apart, but then you see them years down the road, and there is that connection. And you're still like, yes, even though you hated that guy, and he annoys you, or that girl, or whoever. He annoys you, you hated him, you just didn't want to be around him, but then you see him later, like, oh, yeah. And then you can sit down and just bond. But uh those those traumatic experiences create that.

Eric 38:20

Yeah, we we would have SWAT tryouts, and part of the tryout, you know, firearms, physical stuff, is an interview, and we bring guys in and ask, Why do you want to be on the SWAT team? And and most guys will say, I I see what kind of camaraderie you guys have, and I want to be a part of that. It's not I'll just the right old people and get paid for it. And they walk out. You're right, right. Right, right. But then but they walk out and I think they don't even know. Like they think that's what it is, but they they haven't experienced it. I hope that guy gets on the team and now he can see, oh my gosh, this is this is beyond what I was wanting to be.

Todd 39:00

This is a good idea. I leave the military, and for you know, I I left the military in 1996, and it's you there's just something missing. You don't have that, and it's yeah, it's a hole. So we have to stay in touch with one another to just to maintain that. But um so now you preached for 12 years, you shared the truth, and then you spent 24 years with the criminals and you know, your buds and all that. Is there anything that you preach from the pulpit that you'd take back today?

When Beliefs Collide With Real Life

Todd 39:29

But is there something that you look back that you that you once believed and you preached from the pulpit, and you're like, you know, I don't believe that anymore?

Eric 39:38

Yeah. Um some of the some of this was due to I mean, it's just my own re-examination of of my doctrines. Um I work domestic terrorism for a good bit, and when you look at these white supremacists who on social media put, you know, Jesus is Lord, and here's a great Bible verse, and then under that is disgusting racist statements, and then you look at their friends, and one of the friends is an elder from your church who seems to be okay, still being friends with that person. That's disillusioning, I guess, if you can use that word. So there was much of that that changed. Uh, some of the harms that came out made me rethink. And then uh six years ago, I think it was five, six years ago, my oldest child came out as transgender, and then my second child did, and then my third one's gay. So here I am growing up in a conservative Christian family, and all my kids are uh are in the LGBTQ uh category, and and that made me consider I I was always accepting of anyone, but also that's still sin. Um, and I would kind of wrestle with, okay, so how now do you incorporate these, you know, that group into the church? But I came to a place where when my eldest came out that unquestionably I'm going to support him completely 100% completely, and I had to combat, I know my child, I can touch them. I believe in God, but I can't touch him. I don't know the things that I know. And you know, here's my first blasphemy is that I'm gonna put my family above any belief system, I'm gonna support them, and if it contradicts what I used to believe, I better change that because this is gonna come first. My support for my wife and my kids, that's gonna come before what I profess. And if those things clash, well you damn well know the beliefs are gonna have to change then because the the family is going to be first. So that's definitely a heresy I would not have preached in the past. I would have found a way to weave it in, you know, and make some manipulations, but that's just absolute to me.

Todd 42:08

And we've talked about the church in a little bit of a negative light, but that's good. We need to be doing that. We need to be analyzing ourselves and uh practices within the church. And I I've been doing that, and my beliefs changed over the years. I started seeing things and then listening to I had people that mentored me. And uh they just men that had been around for decades and knew and just learning the history on how things emerge, but uh, I'm being quite vague. We're being a little bit negative about the church, but uh young people are turning to the church statistically. Uh people are looking for meaning and it's there. And so for for for young people that are considering faith, you don't need to be afraid of the things that we're talking about. This stuff does happen in churches where it's performative. Sometimes it becomes a police state within the churches where your sins are you're tattled on, you know. I I literally saw or I didn't see it, but this happened in a church. A lady was she was seen wearing pants outside a church and she was tattled on and she got a call from a pastor and it was like, Are you kidding me? So that seems so ridiculous now. But anyways, that stuff has happened in the past, but we need not be afraid of that. Because there are churches out there where it's it's just a gathering place where the truth is being told.

Purpose When You Have No Community

Todd 43:35

And so a little bit of a soliloquy there, but I I got a couple of hypothetical questions as we close this out. So if a 27 year old man shows up at your church on Sunday because he's like, Man, I heard on a podcast about, you know, I need to church might help me get things together. He's not really there for God, though. He's there for just maybe structure in other man, or whatever the motives. Do you take that guy? Yeah.

Eric 44:04

Everyone's welcome. I mean, the people, and that's the way it should be. And I'm going to go off your question and come back to it. But when I when I got into the FBI, there was already this sense that had been there for a hundred years of we do things professionally, we do them right, we do them by the book, by the law. And I have been asked, like, hey, did you ever have to um give up on your beliefs because of things you saw in the FBI? Did you ever, you know, were you ever confronted with something you didn't want? And the answer is absolutely not. Because there had been for so long this sense of we do things right. You know, you go back to the 50s and 60s, and uh the FBI wasn't necessarily doing it that way, but when I came in, that was the standard. So it's easy to keep going in that. And so that should be the standard in the church where that 27-year-old man comes in, and there's already this atmosphere of I don't have it figured out. Let's let's do this together. My uh favorite parable that Jesus told, and this is how I impressed that core group in my church. It says the kingdom of heaven is like a man stumbling upon a great treasure in a field, and so he sells everything he has to buy that field. And I'd say, guys, we're asking people to give up everything, their way of life, their values, whatever it might be, in order to buy into this. That's not coming on one visit, and I do an altar call, and it shouldn't. This this is a highly scrutinized choice of I see this is correct. And so we need to show them okay, there's value. I've seen this enough, I've had people work into my life enough where I can say, hey, there's good community here, there's good good things in following these principles. And so hopefully that 27-year-old man that you see, like he can be a part of that then too, with a group that says, Let me just live with you. I'm a little bit ahead of you. Yeah, I like that. I'm I'm gonna slow down info on that question.

Todd 46:28

My motives when I walked into the church was to meet girls, so that was and then I found uh the gospel. So second hypothetical. So there's a guy listening, he's in his late 20s, he's got no squad, he's got no church, no mentors, and he's pretty cynical about life and what the world has sold him, and he's got a Tuesday night, nothing to do with it. What is what do you recommend that he actually go do? Wow.

Eric 46:58

So when I was in the church, I was earning a living paying for things for my family, and so I got to earn a living while also bring something good to the community, so that's doubly noble. I go into the FBI, same. Better living, you know, a lot better pay, but I got to do something good for the community, doubly noble. So I think it's inherent people want to be a part of, like to find more meaning in life, they want to be part of something that has purpose that brings value. And you know, working a job, you bring value just by supporting the family, but you want to have something more beyond that. And so, you know, hey, let's sit down and let's think of what's some small way we can start bringing value into your life, you know, volunteering in this place or or even you know learning a skill that you can now bring out for other people, creating. And so, you know, let's let's look for what that Tuesday night offers. And that could be meeting with others so that together we're building. But I think we all want to have something that says I bring extra value. I'm not just living, I'm not just a nice guy, but I bring this extra value to the community, and that's why you know that's how I uh find more purpose in myself where I can evaluate myself as the one who contributes.

Todd 48:37

That's yeah, I mean, that that that's something I've been wrestling with. It's like, how do I, if I'm talking to a young man, what do I tell him? And uh so the message is not bleak. So I I I will say that. So I would say that if you are listening to this, you're looking for something out there, uh you you can pray and say, maybe you don't believe in God, but just ask God. If you if you do exist, lead me to something and uh lead me to truth, lead me to connection with others, and lead me to where I can be um where I should be. And uh and then reach out. Start with uh you know, trying to connect with I would say why you be on the lookout for older guys that have kind of been there and and seem to have it together and uh just have those conversations. And uh one of the things I've greatly benefited from is just uh I worked at a bait and tackle shop when I was a teenager, and the older man would come and just sit and talk. And uh I could glean from just listening to what they were saying. And uh and then when they got to know me, and you know, then they would seek me out and hey, you know, what are you doing? And this was a small town in Georgia, and just the wisdom from these old men, some of them were World War II veterans and stuff, but I would say if you're a younger man, get out there and and and try to find that wisdom that the the older guys that have that have been there before you. And uh yeah, and I I concur with what you you said as well, Eric, but uh our men, our young men especially need, and I'm not trying to leave uh young ladies out, but uh this podcast demographically 95% of the listeners are young men. So we're talking to you. So uh yeah.

Eric 50:37

Well, and if you Todd, if you imagine some young man coming to you and saying, Hey, I I I see you've got your stuff together at least better than me. Yeah, could you work with me and help me find something of purpose? Um well, I I can't I can't think of something more honoring than having been said to you. And so you know, if if someone younger is is afraid of looking like a fool, on the contrary, you you are offering uh such a uh tremendous compliment to someone, yeah, and you're giving them that opportunity to have more purpose too. As someone comes and says, Hey, help me find my purpose, you're like, Oh, wow, that's great. I get to be a part of that. How how noble that I get to be there. So you're giving, you're asking for something.

Todd 51:28

Someone asks me giving a great response is gonna be, Well, look, I ain't got it together, but let's lean on one another. We can do this. So trying to figure it out still. But uh, yeah,

Where To Follow Eric And Closing

Todd 51:40

man. Wow, this has been a good conversation, man. I appreciate it, dude. So so let's uh where do we find you? Where do people go to connect with you?

Eric 51:50

Inside, presently, because of all the smoke. But uh, they can find me on Instagram. I I used social media for years in the FBI simply to troll bad guys and see what they're up to. Yeah, and then when I get out, my wife says, Yeah, you need actual ones now. So amazingly, in 2026, the Instagram handle underscore Eric underscore Robinson was available. So you can find me there. You can go to LinkedIn, put in my name and FBI, and you'll see this face, or you can go to my aforementioned website to follow along to see when the book drops and other details. We'll include description breacher.

Todd 52:28

Yeah, if you've enjoyed this, please consider sharing it with a friend. And uh if you can do this, leave us a review, share it with friends, and until next time, we'll see you on the path.